A Master’s Program Can Reveal Your Instructional Design Path With Naomi Allen

Welcome & Guest Introduction

Jackie Pelegrin 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love Podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 142 of the Designing with Love Podcast. I'm thrilled to have Naomi Allen with me today. Naomi has completed her master's program in instructional design at Grand Canyon University. Welcome to the show, Naomi. Hi everyone. Nice to have you on today.

Naomi’s Switch Into Instructional Design

Jackie Pelegrin 0:36

So to start, Naomi, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and share what inspired you to focus on the instructional design field?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah, definitely. I would love to. So I did just complete my master's program. And winding the clock back a little bit to when I started, I originally actually was in a master's program for clinical mental health counseling. And that is kind of what my goal was at the time, career-wise. I had graduated with a degree in psychology and wanted to continue through to become a counselor, a therapist. As I was going through the program, I was also working in higher education and was really falling in love just with the field of education and equipping our students with, you know, the skills that they would then take into the workforce and be able to impact so many different spheres with. And so I was starting to realize, hey, I do really enjoy the space of education and I want to have that impact. But I'm thinking instead of going through the counseling pathway, maybe staying more in the education side. When I was researching programs, I went through the curriculum for instructional design, and I was absolutely loving how the first, you know, few courses really target the science behind learning. So you have your brain-based learning class, you're learning about how the different structures in our brain work and how retention happens, all of that good stuff. And then you kind of move and transition more into the system side where you're learning how to actually build the systems that we will then use to have the learning occur. So loved kind of seeing those two tag teams and realizing that I could stay in the field of education, but still kind of have some of those psychologically founded like the basis for that. So that was kind of part of my thought process. Um did a little bit of research, talked to a couple people in the field, and realized that ultimately that was going to be a good switch for me. Um so did make that switch and have just kind of been off to the races since.

Jackie Pelegrin 2:48

Wow, that's exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 2:52

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Definitely. So that was kind of a little bit of the thought process behind switching over to instructional design. Um, but I also had the opportunity to work for our learning and development team here at GCE. Uh so that's been a position I've really enjoyed and kind of gotten to work alongside some of the things I'm learning in my program, pulling all those gold nuggets and then um doing some of that at work, uh, using the different systems I've learned or theories that we've gone over in the field of learning and development as I'm developing some different content for training, actually giving the training, all of that good stuff, designing assessments, things like that. So I've really loved it. And it's something that my dad did, and I've kind of also gotten to see him be a part of that firsthand. So um have just really enjoyed the field and I'm newer to it, uh, but really loving it so far. Glad you have finished the program too.

Jackie Pelegrin 3:54

Yes, that's exciting. I

Explaining What Instructional Designers Do

Jackie Pelegrin 3:56

love that. It sounds like you and I had a uh Naomi a similar epiphany when it came to uh, you know, becoming an instructional designer and coming into this field because that was kind of how it happened for me. I was, I was, I had gotten my master's in business administration. I thought I was gonna go into marketing and business administration, and I have used those degrees. Um, but at the same time, I was like, there was something, I feel like there was something missing. Like there's I I had a hunger for something else. And then same thing. When I came across the master's program at Walden when I was working there, I was like started reading all the classes and the course descriptions, and I was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing. I love this. What where has this been all my life? I didn't know that instructional design was actually a thing. What is this, right? Yeah. Same thing, you know. I think you and I both have that similar experience where you start reading the courses and you're like, wow, that just like it strikes a chord and it's like light bulb moment, right? It's like, wow, totally epiphany. Like, this is what I'm meant to do. I even remember saying out loud, and people heard me say it because I I said out loud. I said, This is what I've always wanted to do. I just didn't know there was a name for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah, I totally agree. And it's so funny because I'll tell people, you know, oh, I'm finishing my degree, and of course, everyone's like, oh, well, what in? And I'm like, instructional design. And I usually get that face of like, I recognize those words, but maybe not together. Right. And so then getting to explain it and what that looks like, what we as instructional designers do um can look like. It's really fun to see that light bulb movement for some of them where they're like, oh wow, that's really cool, or something I might be interested in, maybe. And it's really fun as well to see the different areas that you can kind of be a part of in the field. I think that's something I really, really enjoyed through the program was getting to interact with students. And it's a decently small program. So I had a lot of the same students kind of in my cohort, I guess you could say, um, who are working through the same classes at the same time, but they might have been, you know, actively being teachers across different uh, you know, ports, parts of the lifespan. So we had some with the littles, some with high schoolers, uh, things like that. We had some who were, you know, working more on the corporate side, like I was, um, and some who were not quite in the field, but using the master's program to kind of work their way in. So it was just really cool to see the different ways that we were using this and how the content in the um methodologies that we were learning could be applied in so, so many different things. So it's been really cool to see that.

Jackie Pelegrin 6:37

Right, exactly. It's it's great when you can advocate for the profession in so many ways. And this podcast is one way to do that, to advocate for the profession and really help people understand what instructional designers do. Because I I go on podcasts so much so many times in Naomi, and the the uh host will be like, so what exactly does instructional designers do, what exactly do they do? What art, what do we do? Yeah, exactly. I'm like, yeah, we do a lot. And it's so funny when I tell them that it's been around since World War II, during, you know, um the time of training the soldiers and everything, they're like, really? It's been around that long. And I'm like, yeah, it has a deep history since the 1940s. And yet there's so many people that just don't know about it or know exactly what it is. They may have, like you said, they may have heard of it, but not the two terms put together like instructional design. Oh, what is that? You know, what do you do? Um, so yeah, so it's really interesting to kind of get the word out there and advocate for it. So it's it's great when we can we can do that. We can be the voice for the profession and get other people interested in it too. So I like that. Yeah, totally. I love that.

Microlearning & Role Play In Training

Jackie Pelegrin 7:48

So in your recent master's degree work at GCU, you focus so much on that innovative, um, those innovative strategies like microlearning and scenario-based learning, which I absolutely love. I think that's the wave of the future. It's already here, actually, but I think more and more scenario-based learning is being designed for curriculum, right? And for training. So, yes. Can you give an example of how you use microlearning or scenario-based learning in your work and what impact did that have on the learners that you designed it for?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, totally. Um, well, I 100% agree that scenario-based learning, micro learning, gamification, all that good stuff, those are all such uh common themes and ways to design effectively. Uh, and I would say that specifically for me, I'm working mainly with all adult learners. So even more so with that population, right? We want to be having things that are hands-on. Um, they're practicing and applying the different scenarios, the different, you know, um pieces of content in a way that is very relevant to keep them engaged and focused and make sure that that's retained.

Jackie Pelegrin 9:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Um, so I would say one of the things that I worked on across a couple different classes, but it was also actively something I was doing in my job was a nursing uh kind of development day presentation. So um I went through and was able to kind of chunk some different content and then have all these different versions of like a role play scenario. Cause this was an in-person um training over the course of four hours uh where I got a group of counselors and was able to kind of work with them through some content. And I would say that when you have needy content like the nuances of a nursing program and all the requirements and things that come alongside that, really breaking that down into smaller, more manageable bits and then practicing it helps make sure that it stays relevant. There's not really as many misconceptions, because if there are, you'll catch them in that role play. Um, so that was really helpful, I would say, for us to do. Throughout my program as well, we I rebuilt that specific program over the course of a few classes. Um, but I also got the opportunity to create a few different e-learning modules. So these were not instructor-led. Um, so it was a little bit more, I don't know, it was a little bit different to create some of those um moments for that hands-on learning or those scenario-based settings. Um, so that might have looked more like an open-ended response, or even in my class through the discussion boards and posts, if you're creating a full course shell instead of just one module, you can use some of those different strategies to kind of promote, you know, um the class kind of chatting through how they're using these things, um, giving scenarios and saying, hey, what would we do with these different pieces? And as long as there's a good amount of engagement there, it's really cool to see that that can work just as well as, you know, something where you're actively in a classroom, um, you know, having people role-play through different settings.

Jackie Pelegrin 11:45

Wow, that's great. I love that. Um, yeah, I agree. Scenario-based learning is so powerful, right? Because you can really put the those individuals in the moment, right? And then they know that they can take that of what they've learned in those scenarios and actually bring that to the job and apply it. So that's great. There's nothing better than that. I love it. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

And I think what's so important is that the scenarios are super relevant because I've seen it kind of go both ways, where sometimes if you're trying to not throw trainees in the deep end and give them more like small manageable bits, but they're not as relevant, it's kind of hard for that to stick, right? Because if you're not using it in the field, it's maybe not something that's going to be as relevant or something that you need to remember. Versus, you know, if you as a trainer have some experience and are able to say, hey, when I did this, here's exactly what I saw, here's what you will see. Um, it's a little bit different to give those more specific FAQ scenarios that they're going to actually experience.

Making Scenarios Truly Job Relevant

SPEAKER_00 12:51

And that way when we're practicing, it's kind of just a dress rehearsal for exactly what they'll see in the field. Um, so I've seen that be equally as important as just getting a lot of scenario-based learning in, is making sure that all the scenarios you're working with are very applicable to what those individuals are going to see on the day-to-day.

Jackie Pelegrin 13:10

Yes, absolutely. And kind of a follow-up to that, because I know uh, you know, the ADI model is uh is all predominant throughout the program, right? Throughout throughout the master's program. You actually get to work on each phase of the Audi model in your pro in the projects. And I love how this program is project-based. It's you don't, I mean, you do some writing, but it's uh it's mainly reflection-based and I like that. So there's not really many papers, if any. There's a couple, right? So it's very project-based, which I love. So did you were you able to find that you um that you were able to utilize the ADI model and see it through to fruition in the job that you do now? Um, and how how impactful was that

ADDIE In The Real World

Jackie Pelegrin 13:54

to be able to actually see it in action um with each phase of the model of that model?

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah, that's such a great question. I feel like when you're in the program, right, in those first classes that mention ADI, you really look at it as really distinct different parts. Um, and so it's really helpful to learn how to use the methodology to have that happen. This is just me speaking from my experience, but what I've seen so far is that it's a much more fluid process when you're in the job. Um, and when there's a lot of different iterations or you're working, you know, cross-functionally. So there's other departments that have says, or you're getting things approved by SMEs, or timelines are off, you know, that isn't as clean cut as it is when you're studying it. Um so I think it was really an interesting learning curve to see that work in the field and see how it can make a lot of the things that you might be naturally doing a little bit smoother, a little bit more effective. Um, but definitely for anyone who is coming out of the program or um expecting, you know, to be able to fit every stage into a neat box. That wasn't my experience going through from that.

Jackie Pelegrin 15:08

That's true. It can be it can be a little bit messy sometimes that because we know that nothing is gonna go right as smoothly as we hope it will. I mean, we hope yes, it goes smoothly, but yeah, you're right. There's always gonna be scope creep that's gonna come into play, or like you said, delays in certain things and things that are out of our control that we we just have to go, okay, let's pivot, let's let's change here and let's see what we can do. Yeah, that's that's true. Absolutely. Did you find yourself using any other models like uh there because I've used Addy in my 15 years as being an instructional designer at the most? But um, and I think you know, sometimes I use a combination of Addy and SAM because we do the iterative development in curriculum design and development department. But have you noticed that you've used like a combination of maybe SAM and Addy or rapid development or something like that? And have you found that really helpful when you can be able to coro do have different models that you can use together? Do you find that helpful?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, I would say that that is typically how it goes is kind of a mix of a few different models. Um, I would say also for a lot of my projects that I created, a lot of times we would work backwards. Um, and so that was something that was kind of interesting to, you know, there's a model for that. Um, but working Addy into that has been kind of interesting to see. So you just are looking at it, it feels upside down a little bit from what you do in the program to when you kind of know, okay, we're starting with our stakeholder meeting so that we know what the goal of this training is, but then we have to flesh it out right backwards. So that's kind of how I'm seeing some of the different projects that I work on in the field is hey, here's kind of

Backward Design & Mixing Models

SPEAKER_00 17:03

the end goal. This is what leadership wants this group of employees to be able to produce, um, whatever that might be. So now we have to go work backwards and make sure that we can get our employees from here all the way over to here, because that's the ultimate goal of training. Um, so instead of, you know, starting and kind of building up and seeing, you know, where that takes us, it's like you have the end goal, and so you're building or back from that. So I think that's been one interesting way that I've kind of seen um things look a little bit different, but that's also I think what's really stretched and grown me as an instructional designer.

Jackie Pelegrin 17:41

Yes, being able to utilize that backward design. Sometimes we use that too in in curriculum because we find that the if the SMEs are having a really hard time trying to figure out and articulate things, like they know the content, but they're they don't know how to bring it into fruition, right? They don't know how to be able to say, okay, here's what I want them to know, but I don't know how to get it into an assignment. So sometimes we'll we'll take a step back and we'll say, okay, well then rather than let's uh look than looking at topic titles and objectives, let's let's work backwards, like you said, and let's see what's the end goal? What do you want the the students to get out of this course, right? And then work your way backwards. Yeah, I like that. That's a that's a great option. So I think as you build up your skills as an instructional designer, this is great for all of the listeners out there, is that you can um you can try those different models and theories. And if one doesn't work, that's okay. You can you can um try something else, and that's the beauty of this field, right? Is that you can try things and it's okay if it doesn't work the first time, you just try something else and and that's okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, totally. And every project is so unique um and brings its unique challenges and timelines and things. And so I think that is the beauty of having so many different models to choose from, is you might think you know what the best way to go about building a training or a or curriculum or whatever it is that you're making, um, but it might just be more of a practical decision, even of like, okay, well, what can I physically allocate time-wise, um, you know, and things like that. And so maybe you're choosing a different model because of that. But uh definitely something I am very excited to continue growing on. I um well, you know, keep moving through a few of the different ones that we got to take a look at through the program uh and continue to not only build those into my assignments, but also into my work.

Jackie Pelegrin 19:38

Wow, that's great. I love that, Naomi. So as we wrap up, what are some tips and advice you can share with those who are looking to complete a master's program in instructional design like you did recently?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, I would say um definitely do your research ahead of time. Look through the courses. If, you know, like we did, you start to really fall in love with the idea of what instructional design could mean and what a career in instructional design could mean. Um, GCU's program was a really, really great way for me to um kind of have that entry point. And I didn't start out working in learning and development when I started my program. I was working for the College of Nursing, um, doing enrollment support, so

Tips For Getting The Master’s Done

SPEAKER_00 20:22

program development. Um, and as I moved through my program and then transitioned into this role, it was really cool to see how everything I learned was then in turn being used in the workforce. So I would say it's a great entry point if you have no idea, you know, about instructional design and just want to learn more, kind of get into the field. That was kind of where I was. Um, but also if you're working in the field and you want to learn more about the models and an increase in your technology understanding, different platforms that you may not be quite aware of how to work, but want to. Uh that was another really cool benefit of the program that I came out of. Um, so there's a lot of different ways that I think the program could be very relevant and helpful. Um, and if you're considering it, I would just say, you know, get ready for some work. Uh, but it's great and um definitely was fun to have a lot more hands-on projects. You come out of the program with a portfolio and you're like, wow, I did that. That is so great to see all of the different projects I've gotten to work on, and you start thinking back to, you know, where you were at when you completed them and um how far you've come. So highly recommend it. And um, yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 21:43

Yeah, I love that. It's uh don't be afraid, right? Just uh as they say, just do it, right? And you'll find it it's a great experience. Uh I know it can be scary to for some to go back and get a master's. I know for me, going back and getting a second, I was like, oh my goodness, do I really want to do this and go back and put it like you and I, we you know, we did it, we have no regrets, right? So I think um for people listening, you know, if if you're on the fence, just you know, kind of think about your why. I think that's so important, right? Because have a why, because then I I know for me, I don't know if this happened to you, but there were times where I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I started to doubt myself and I'm like, okay, I had to kind of regroup myself and go, okay, why am I doing this? And sometimes even my family and my friends would ask me, Jackie, why are you doing this? What's your why? Go back to it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I even wrote it down so I could actually physically read it and pick it up and go, okay, this is tangible here. This is my yeah, this is my why. So um I think whatever strategies help people to just keep pushing forward, right? When when it gets tough, um yeah, when the when they say the going gets tough, you just keep going. Yeah. Yep, there you go. Yeah. Because it's always gonna be a challenge. Anytime you take on something new, yeah, it's gonna be a challenge. But yeah, I think when you come out on the other side, you you're better for it, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Totally.

Jackie Pelegrin 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

And I think like anything, it's so daunting to start it. And then once you get in your groove, you start to realize, okay, you know, even just practically, I do homework on these days, and here's the days things are due, and here's what I need to take care of by, you know, the point in the week. And when your schedule and routine also kind of follows it, I felt like I halfway through the program and it did kind of take me uh a few months, but um I got into my groove where it was very manageable for me to kind of stay on top of things. Um, so even from a practical standpoint, I know a lot of people when considering the master's program, it's like, okay, well, we're working full time, so what does it look like to add more to our plate? Right. There's um so much on there already, but you you will find a groove. But I will say, just with anything, give yourself grace. There's a learning curve to trying anything new. And I think sometimes there's a lot of pressure that we can put on ourselves to um just get it right the first time or uh not feel overwhelmed or think if we are feeling overwhelmed, is something wrong? Is this not for me? Um, but sometimes that feeling just means that you're growing and stretching. And sometimes that is exactly what you said. You know, what you got to do is just push through, keep going.

Jackie Pelegrin 24:27

Right. I love that, Naomi. That's great. Wonderful. Oh well, uh, is there any uh any last minute thoughts you wanted to uh to include before we wrap up or anything?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I don't think so. Um yeah, if you're curious about the program, uh there's a ton of different ways for you to get information, but I know just coming and listening to the podcast, you'll get to hear from a lot of different people um who are in the field and maybe you resonate with some of their stories or what they're working on. And so um it's a very broad field. And if you're interested, there's definitely probably a cool niche for you. Right. I love that.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:07

Well, thank you so much, Naomi, for your insights today and for will being willing to come on the podcast because I know it's it's not always easy to to take that plunge,

Your Why, Your Routine, Your Growth

Jackie Pelegrin 25:16

but um, but it's really nice when you can inspire others. So all of your experiences and education and instructional design that you talked about are we sh are they're they're definitely going to be inspired by that. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And thank you. Yeah, I'd love to have you back on sometime. Maybe, you know, when you're when you feel like you you're kind of in the field a little longer, and if you want to come back on and talk about your experiences maybe six months out or something like that, um feel free to reach out to me and we can arrange something. Perfect. Yeah, I'll ramp up some cool projects, keep you guys on your toes. I love it. Wonderful. Well, thanks again, and I look forward to having you back. Alrighty. Bye. Thanks. Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today. Your support means the world to me. If you'd like to help keep the podcast going, you can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review, or offer a monetary contribution. Every act of support, big or small, makes a difference, and I'm truly thankful for you.