Multimodal Learning That Works With Dr. Dwayne Wood

Welcome & Series Setup

Jackie Pelegrin 0:00

Hello, and welcome to the Designing with Love Podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 152 of the Designing with Love Podcast. I'm excited to welcome Dr. Dwayne Wood back for part two of our mini-series. And he wants me to call him Dwayne, so I will do that. In our previous conversation, we explored generative AI's impact on academic curriculum. Today we're shifting the focus to multimodal learning and how instructional designers and educators can use different formats, tools, and techniques to better support adult learners. Duane brings a strong background in adult education, curriculum development, instructional design, and emerging technologies, which makes this a great conversation for anyone who wants to design learning experiences that are more flexible, engaging, and accessible. Welcome back to the show, Duane.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

No, thank you.

Jackie Pelegrin 1:01

You're welcome. So glad to have you

Defining Multimodal Learning For Adults

Jackie Pelegrin 1:04

back. So to start, when we talk about multimodal learning, what does that mean to you, especially in the context of adult education?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Well, so, and I mean the traditional definition, right, of of multimodal is just multiple means, right, of of passing information. And I think traditionally we think of that as uh, you know, video, audio, you know, text, uh, but you know, there's there's a lot more out there. Uh you can think of a simulation as a a mode, or um and then an AI technology can be a mode for transmitting um information. And when I think about this within the adult context, and in the adult learning context, we really have to think about what how is that mode, that specific mode we're thinking about, helping us achieve that learning outcome that we've outlined and the best means. And I like to use an example and we we'll dig into like cognitive load here. So, you know, the the older model of cognitive load had three categories intrinsic, um, extraneous and um germane, right? Germane is the one you wanted. Extraneous, intrinsic uh caused some some some problems there. So when we think about the mode, uh, you know, one of the things I like to say is, you know, if I gave if I read out the mathematical description of a cone, it takes people a long time to figure out to know what I'm talking about. Because it has a high intrinsic load in that mode. But if I just showed you a picture of a cone, you'd get it in seconds, quick, fast, because that mode has a lower intrinsic load. So when we're thinking about our our uh what modes we're using, we're trying to reduce that extraneous and cognitive load so that the the learner can pick up on the information um and and and understand it in a much more efficient way. Um and they're not spending a lot of time and effort trying to figure out what you're what you're getting at. So that's when we think about the mode, it's what are we using that helps us get that learner the information or the knowledge or the skill in the most efficient way we can, right? With without a bunch of extraneous. And if you think about this in terms of motivation, you know, if if you open up a new course and you're like, I'm ready to learn, and all of a sudden that you got to read 400 pages of dense text, what happens to your motivation, right? It's probably gonna drive, right? Um, so we have to kind of think about it in those in those contexts, much larger uh in a more holistic way in how we're presenting information to a learner and how they're gonna navigate that to achieve that uh learning goal. And we can look at where those friction points or that um that cognitive load and could we use another mode to help reduce that cognitive load for that for that learner.

Cognitive Load & Tool Friction

Jackie Pelegrin 3:39

Right. That's really important, especially now with adult learners. Most of them are taking classes online or they're doing blended learning, right? So we need to account for that, but they may not be in a live classroom with an instructor on hand to be able to answer those questions. So they're doing more of that independent type of study, right? On on their own, where it may be, it may not be synchronous, it may be asynchronous learning.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

No, you're absolutely right. You know, that that technology you're interfacing with, if it's not intuitive or if it's not something you've used before, you've already added cognitive load right to that activity. I I like to use examples back a long time, but I I took a uh a business statistics course and we had to get this really fancy calculator. And the first line on the syllabus said that the professor was not there to show us how to use the calculator. Oh my goodness, I was like lost trying to figure out, you know, second function, third function on the calculator, you know. So that calculator presented such a cognitive load to me that I uh, you know, that was a challenge that, you know, um I didn't really get, I don't think I really picked up the other content, you know, because I was figuring out how to use the tool that was given um to achieve that content. So we have we have to kind of think through those things. And you bring up a great point of the technology we're using, you know, and how how is this is the student prepared? Um do they have the necessary knowledge to just interact with that technology that we're using? And that's not a learning goal, right? Um, so we need to make sure that we're we're building it in a way and designing in a way that allows a learner to be able to do that.

Jackie Pelegrin 5:11

Right. That's so true. So that way they're not spending time learning the technology instead of learning the content that they need to learn and getting frustrated. Yeah, that's so true. That kind of segues into the the next question too, because it has a little bit of that with the technology in there. So,

UDL Choice & Accessibility Wins

Jackie Pelegrin 5:28

as we know, adult learners often bring different experiences, responsibilities, learning preferences, and even technology comfort levels into the training environment and the learning environment as well. So, how can multimodal techniques help meet those varied needs that the learners have?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah, so you know, it I like to start with maybe this one and talk about like the universal design for learning, you know, that talks about providing multiple means of representation, you know, multiple means of assessment. So it gives some student agency or some learner agency into how they navigate uh to achieve a learning goal. Now, that doesn't mean that you're developing like uh, you know, you know, five different pathways or five different learners within your um you know your cohort, but you're you're you're setting up things. An example, if we're providing uh a video, but we also provide the transcript. So someone that maybe can't watch the video or the videos just you know, they're they have trouble with that, they can just download or look at and read through the transcript, right? It just gives them another means of getting that information. Um and on top of that, we talk about designing for accessibility. And if you design for accessibility, you're not just designing for the people that need it, you're designing for everyone. Uh giving example with the video again. If you make sure your videos are all captioned and they're captioned well, you're actually helping everybody. There may be somebody that the only time they can do their content or look through their content, they're in a loud room or a busy room and they can't have the volume or they don't have headphones. So now they can just use the captioning. You just help them. They don't necessarily need the captioning for an accessibility purpose, but having them help them get that content. And so again, we um I don't know if I can say it enough, but you know, we we design for accessibility for the people that need it, but we when we do that, we design for everybody. Um those things that help everyone. You know, I I like to use the example too of the magnifier, right? Um you know, you know, can you if you magnify what you're the course you're on and you zoom in on it, will a learner know where they're at? Is there enough cues or clues so they know exactly where they are in the content so they know how to navigate through it, right? Um that's for everyone. I know for me, because I make everything big now because I'm getting older and you know, trying to see small um font is a little, so I zoom in. Um, so again, those type of things. Um, you know, we could talk about again in the previous question we kind of talked about cognitive load, right? Trying to reduce that intrinsic cognitive load. Think about where maybe you got a fairly complex or dense text. Well, what if you paired that with maybe a concept map, image, or infographic? Right now you're you're trying, you're helping the student navigate that content. You know, so um another great way in the adult space is to make the connections directly to a real world event or activity. Uh and if and if you're in a workspace, you can actually tie that directly to maybe a work task. And that'll help them navigate um that content. And if you put it into a scenario, it puts it in kind of like a real world context, and you'll you'll kind of activate that intrinsic motivation um to navigate through the through those. Um, you know, I like to say, you know, give give learners some choice on on those tools, but you you can't give them a whole bunch, right? Because uh then you're just gonna spend a lot of time just developing all kinds of content. But if you can give some limited choice and really think about um when we talk about assessments or how they demonstrate that knowledge, that you're putting it some options there where they're demonstrating that knowledge that that's aligned with the objective and not just how to use the technology. Um You know, we could talk about uh one of the popular ones I see all the time is especially in the asynchronous environment, they want the student to do like a briefing or a presentation. So they ask the student to record themselves or create a video and then upload that as their proof of product. Well, is creating the video a learning objective? Because that may be creating a barrier for that student. So if you can offer multiple means of achieving that objective for that um that student. Now, again, we could caveat with you know, having somebody present is a way to do some AI mitigation, right? And that, you know, um they can't have AI just do it for them completely, right? Um but they can still have help. Um so you wouldn't want to maybe substitute that with a written paper. Um, but maybe it's a live session, right, where they present. Um so I mean there's some things that you need to think about that we're not we're not setting up a barrier to a student to accomplishing that uh or show or demonstrating that they understand the content or meeting that objective. Um so we just need to be able to offer those different um options for it for a student to achieve.

Jackie Pelegrin 10:14

Yes, I love that, Dwayne. That's that's such a great uh idea to be able to do that, especially when we're able to make it work, right? To where we're able to assess that in those varied ways. That's really great. And I love that you brought up the universal design for learning. That's so important because I think a lot of times accessibility is an afterthought, right? And it's after things are done, and then the student has a problem, right? Or an issue. Yeah, that's so true. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, one of the things I always see with that is um, especially now the AI, right? Um some of these AI tools they can produce some really fantastic images and infographics. Um, but if you download that and you put it in your content and it's got a lot of content on it, it's a JPEG or a PNG file, so a screen reader can't read it. So and unless you put like super detailed alt text, you may have a learner that's using a screen reader that's not getting that content. So, you know, you might want to think about uh, well, could I build that in another file that is accessible and provide that as a downloadable um infographic or job aid or something, right? That is accessible. Um and then and then we could even tell you like that's gonna help other people, right? Because now they could they if especially if it's like a job aid, well, I can download it and I have it physically, right? Um that I could use in my place of work. You know, so I again I we we kind of got to really think about those things. Um uh, you know, because uh tables are the same way. You know, if you have a uh an image of a table and you put it in your in your learning, uh if someone's just using a screen reader, it's not gonna get any of that. Uh it's only gonna read what you put in the alt text, and you can't put all of that data in an alt text. It's just too much.

Jackie Pelegrin 11:57

Right. That's so true. Wow. Yeah, that's that's a that's such a great point because I don't think a lot of times instructional designers that aren't familiar with accessibility standards, they may not be familiar with that. And yeah, that a screen reader can't can't read that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah. You know, uh the other thing I noticed with some of these AI ones is they're that they really don't, well, at least ones I've seen so far, sometimes the contrast is off too, right? Where um our accessibility guidance, you have to have a certain ratio of, I think it's 4.5 is the minimum, if I remember right, ratio of contrast. Um so but there's some tools out there, like um, I like to use in the Wave tool. Um that that can actually, you can it'll assess a web page, but it also has a contrast checker. Um some great simple tools to use to you know make sure that you're meeting those accessibility. And then there's some simple things like um, have you ever tried to navigate your learning without a mouse? You know, just use the tab. That'll give you an idea if you know if you got some tab order accessibility issues if you just try to tab through it, right? No, no special technology there. It's just a simple little check to make sure that you um because not everybody's using a mouse.

Jackie Pelegrin 13:08

Right. And it shouldn't be that uh, you know, learners have to request it, right? They shouldn't run into a problem. It should be something where we're not doing it afterwards. It's built into the process, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

So it's so important.

Practical Multimodal Strategies That Scale

Jackie Pelegrin 13:22

And you kind of did touch on these a little bit, Dwayne. Um are there any other practical examples of multimodal strategies educators or instructional designers like you and I can use without overwhelming themselves or their learners?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Yeah, and again, we hit on some examples, but you know, one of the one of the most powerful ones, or the one I see a lot of times, you know, is is pair explanation with application. So if you're explaining a concept, right, it it's it's a little more abstract. And sometimes that's a little harder for a learner to kind of um grasp onto. So provide a concrete application. That'll help the learner make that connection between the abstract idea and its actual application. So that and you can do that with different modes, right? Maybe, maybe you got a written explanation and you got a diagram or a short video of application, right? And you can kind of pair those modes together. And we could kind of talk a little bit about um dual coding. So that dual coding theory basically says that you know, we process information in our brain in different areas depending on how we receive it. So uh, you know, when we read something and when we hear something, it's processed in the same part of the brain. But our visual is processed in another part. So ideally, you want to get multiple parts of the brain activated during the learning that you're going through. So if you have written text um and then an image, you're hitting two. You're hitting the the auditory, like auditory controller, auditory loop, uh, and the visual cortex at the same time. So you increase the potential chances of retention. Where you see this fail a lot is when you have, say, a PowerPoint slide deck that's got text heavy, and the narrator is basically just talking. Well, naturally, a learner is just going to start reading what's on the slide. And they're trying to listen to what the narrator is saying. Well, it's being processed in the same part of the brain. It's very difficult. You can even test this for yourself. Listen to a podcast and read something at the same time and see how much retention you have of either afterwards. Um, right? It'll probably be pretty low. Right. So that thinking through how that is, um, how we're we're we're pairing those different parts of the brain together to increase chances of retention. Uh neuroscientists say, you know, that neurons that fire together wire together, right? So if we get different different uh parts of the brain activated, we're increasing chances of retention. Notice I say increasing chances. It doesn't guarantee anything. Um, but we're setting the learner up right for success in in capturing that information and retaining that information. Um so that's just a some some couple things,

Dual Coding Done Right

SPEAKER_02 16:00

you know. Um just to hit fairly um lightly too, is you know, I like to say use discussions with purpose. So you know, to I've seen so many discussion forums. Again, we're talking in kind of the asynchronous adult learning um context here, where it's almost like a mini essay. Right. And okay, the discussion questions there to help meet some of that social learning aspects. If it's a mini essay and it's got kind of a right or wrong answer, it's probably it's not serving your purpose of that social aspect. So when we think about discussions, think about the purpose that it's trying to achieve and then design it that way. So you're then you're now aligning that with meeting that um meeting that goal. And and make the discussion not a checkbox activity for the student anymore. Right? Right. Um and make it where it's purposeful purposeful and they find value in doing it. Uh just as an example, again, in the instructional design field, one of the things that I've done with discussion forums is I make them like labs. So there's like an experiment that a student will do, and then they show their results and they can have a discussion with their peers on those results. Right. And it's very much oriented towards the um instructional design. So it might be something like, you know, divine like a um experiment with AI to design a mini lesson and see what it comes up and then share your results, right? And then have that discussion of how well it did and what it missed and how you can make it better. And that tends to be more intrinsically valued by the student than doing that kind of traditional discussion form.

Jackie Pelegrin 18:15

I like that. That's great, Dwayne. Wow. Because I find that too. I find that either discussions go one of two ways, right? They either are just one question and it's like, is that really getting to the heart of what we're looking for? Or they are just like you said, a mini essay, and I'm like, oh, that's way too much. Yeah. It's yeah. I find both ends of the spectrum. So it's trying to find that balance, right? Of that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah, and and and you want discussion, right? You want you want students to actually look at whatever people have posted and you know, and be contribute to that and have a, you know, and and produce that collaboration or that coordination and and produce that because that's what that discussion forum is meant to do in that asynchronous environment, right? Is to produce that that so if if you're not setting up to do that, um, you know, again, we're we're setting up a check to box, right? How many times have you seen students go in there and I agree with your post? It was so great. Um, you the learning hasn't happened. You're just checking the box to get the credit. Um and and that's what not what we that's not the goal.

Jackie Pelegrin 19:18

Right. That's not considered substantive, right? Yes. Exactly. I love that. As we know, another important piece is knowing how to use these techniques intentionally. What mistakes do you think designers should avoid when adding elements like videos, visuals, like you mentioned, like charts, audio, simulations we talked a little bit about on discussions, or any AI-supported activities into a course? Uh feel free to touch on any of those you feel are important.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, so you know, what I see a lot of times happens is uh one of a couple things. One, we choose a modality because it's the fad, or it's what it's what you know is is seems to be popular, or we overload with a whole bunch of things, like a whole bunch of video, right? Um, or I see it because it's kind of like the default.

Discussion Forums With Real Purpose

SPEAKER_02 20:09

This is the way we've always done it. This is what we're just gonna do. What I would say what you want to do when you're thinking about your modalities is you you have to have some information that you should have gotten in your analysis phase. You should, you should know what the learner, right? Um, because I could design and build a fantastic 4K high definition learning video that's absolutely fantastic. But if my learners don't have the bandwidth to watch it, it doesn't do me any good, right? So you have to understand where what your learner has. And we touched on it in a previous question already. We talked about um just the technology and its use, right? That already creates, could create a barrier. So we have to know what where the learner's coming from and what they have to work with when we're choosing a modality. Um, but we also have to understand the objective we're trying to achieve. And we we don't want to have something that doesn't align well with meeting that objective, right? And we talked about it different ways where that would, you know, increase cognitive load, right? Create frustration, create a barrier. We're trying to reduce that as an instructional designer. That's gonna be one of, you know, that's our one of our major roles when we're putting content together. We also want to not just overload uh, you know, and just keep pile on a bunch of um, you know, all these videos or all this text or all these images. It it'll just be too much. And you know, you and I have talked where, you know, in education, a lot of times less is more, right? We're we're we're putting together what the learner needs to achieve the objective, and that's it. Right. Um, in the in the most efficient way we can and reduce those barriers and and mitigate the cognitive load, um, you know, just to that germane load, but that that friction we want to happen to create the learning aspects of it. Um another thing that I I see a lot, especially in like a lot of the e-learning authoring tools, there's kind of like this unwritten rule that the more times I make a learner click, I'm increasing the chances of retention. So it doesn't matter how many clicks you make, or you know, uh how many different uh videos are interacting, it's not automatically evidence that you're gonna get engagement. It goes back to looking at it holistically and helping the learner navigate that learning in the most efficient and clear and concise way to get there. Right. So um it's it's the same thing like, you know, um Just because I add an AI activity doesn't mean I automatically made the learning better. It has to be aligned with achieving that learning outcome based upon the target audience, right? Understanding where they're coming from to help them get to that new point as we go. And the point on technology, and we kind of talked about a little bit, but I would say also adding a technology, are you unintentionally measuring technical confidence and not the outcome you're trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

So we have to kind of think about that. What are we actually doing and how are we measuring? Is it truly aligned with those objectives we're trying to achieve? And these are some small things you can do when you go back and look at designs and be like, oh, you know what? Maybe I'm doing those, you know, make some small changes. I think you'll see some you know outsized outcomes from some of those simple little changes.

Jackie Pelegrin 23:35

Right. That's so true. Yeah, I just it's funny because as you mentioned that, Dwayne, it made me think of I I've got this new mini ser it's a 12-episode mini-series. I I think I mentioned it um on Saturday when we talked, when we had our um our first part, and it's all about the different myths and instructional design. And one of them is about technology automatically thinks things better, right? And it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah, you know, you know, so one of the technologies that I'm always combating against is PowerPoint. And PowerPoint can be a great tool, right? It can be, but PowerPoint is very linear. So, you know, if you don't design PowerPoint well for your learning, as soon as you click the next slide, your audience lost whatever was on that previous slide. Because our working memory is not long enough, right? So you we really have to think through those again. Um what it what how is the technology helping us achieve the learning outcome? Or is it just adding? Is it adding cognitive load that's getting in the way and creating a barrier? You know, um, again, I'm I'm I'm all for using technology to achieve learning outcomes, but we have to do it in the right way. Um and again, the the answer always comes down to it depends. I need all the I need all the contextual information. You know, I need your needs now. What is what is the learner, right? What are the goals we're trying to achieve? And you need all that information to make an informed instructional design decision. And on top of that, you have to know that that first decision is probably gonna be close, but you're gonna need to go through cycles, right? And you're gonna need to collect data and evaluate and then come back and make edits and changes and and kind of do that cycle before you get to that truly like optimal product.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Right. So true.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:26

Absolutely. Oh, great insights. Thank you, Dwayne. So onto our bonus question. If an educator only had time to improve one part of a course using a multimodal approach, where would you suggest they start?

SPEAKER_02 25:40

So I would say you need to if you don't if you have data on the course, or if you have some like you know, some student kind of insight um on the course, I would look for the area where learners struggled the most. Or maybe there's an assessment they didn't do real well. Well, where is that assessment aligned with the content and look at that that content? So starting to look where the where the where there was some not optimal performance, right? Basically, or that maybe they struggled a little

Mistakes To Avoid With Modalities

SPEAKER_02 26:10

bit. And that's where I would look to make those small changes and improvements. And and you know, my guess is if you if you you can do that and that almost like post-mortem, right? Looking at it and going backwards and going, okay, I bet you the content was either probably ambiguous or it was content that was just like all text or something. Um and there's probably means to help reduce the complexity or you know, the intrinsic or extraneous load there um to produce some better outcomes. I have even found doing this, where I did the, you know, I took the student performance and I went backwards and looked, and I found that the the assessment area was not even covered in the content.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

So so that when you when we that's where I would say start. You know, um, if you have data on it, or if you don't, if it's brand new, um use your own experience of like where would I struggle most in this content and look there for your where you're trying to improve. And that's I I mean that's kind of a a general response, but uh I I usually find that that that kind of like will highlight areas where you can get the greatest improvement for time spent.

Jackie Pelegrin 27:23

That's good. Especially for instructional designers like myself that work on content that where it's not my expertise, right? Where I'm I'm doing counseling curriculum and and social work curriculum, and that's not my expertise. So you're right. I mean, I I always ask the subject matter experts. I'm like, wouldn't would students struggle with this? Would they understand this coming into this course? What did what have they had beforehand, right? So yeah, I think that's so important.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah, you know, it's the um it the one of the examples I like to use is is is the math teacher, right? Um the the math teacher could be an expert in mathematics. But in order to be a good teacher, you also have to know where students are going to most likely make mistakes. That's another kind of set of knowledge and skill set that would make you a good math teacher on top of just the math skills themselves, right?

Jackie Pelegrin 28:14

Right. So true. And that's one of the it's kind of uh one of the other myths I talk about. I did the recording yesterday was that good teaching does not equal instructional design, good instructional design because you know, teachers do bring certain skill sets, but that doesn't automatically make them good instructional designers because what we do is different. So uh being able to have that is is good.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

And and in that that teacher, one of the skill sets, you know, when you're in the classroom is understanding that that your students and bu bringing the content to them, right? To where they it where it's just enough to to challenge them. Um you know, example from my my military days, we we were teaching um uh military oper orders, uh so operations orders, how to write an operation order, basically, right? Uh pretty boring subject. Well, we had a captain that was in there that was um really great at it, but these were like brand new, you know, they had no idea what an operation order was on top of that. And the captain went in there just like telling them all these details, all the great, it was fantastic, great stuff. But the students really didn't learn anything because it was so far above them. Um I watched another individual went in there and he started talking about how to plan a vacation. And the students are like getting it. And then what he did is he translated each of those steps for planning a vacation to writing an operation order,

Where To Start Improving One Thing

SPEAKER_02 29:39

and the students got it. You know, so the the the the design of the course didn't change in either of those. It was how the teacher related that to the audience, and that's a skill, right? That has to be developed.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Absolutely. Yep, that's so true.

Jackie Pelegrin 29:59

Wow, I love that. So, Duane, as we wrap up, what advice would you give to instructional designers who want to make their courses more engaging for adult learners while still keeping the learning experience clear and manageable for them?

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And I I think it comes down to making a meaningful activity that's relevant to your audience. If you can do that, it it you're you're gonna get that intrinsic motivation to work through and learn that content, you know, and make it clear and concise, right? And don't have, you know, don't simply just pile on a bunch of media or more interaction and think that's gonna get you better outcomes. It's you're actually gonna have poorer

Relevance First For Adult Engagement

SPEAKER_02 30:43

returns, right? You have you have to go and look at it and understand the audience, understand the objective you're trying to achieve, and create that pathway um that's meaningful, right? Um, how many times have you taken a training that doesn't really relate to anything you do? You're not really motivated to, you know, by the time, by the time you're you're done right with that, it's it's already gone, right? Because it has no meaning. You haven't been able to make any connections. Uh I I have this like analogy I like to use, and it it's pretty, it's pretty um general, but you know, as adult learners, we come in with experience, right? And we have previous knowledge. Well, what you want to do is you want to activate that and then add to it. I like to think of it as uh a closet. So um an adult learner has a mind, right, that's a closet that already has clothes in it. What you want to do is understand what the clothes is there so that you can hang new clothes that match those other clothes, right? So now they have that now they have some new understanding or a new outfit, right? Um, you know, to that the that's the learning you're trying to achieve. So when we think about that, that's how we want to build towards that and not just add a bunch of activity or um you know technology or modalities to it. You it there needs to be, you need to answer how is this at helping the the learner achieve the outcome? Um and if you can't answer that, you probably don't need it.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:04

That's true. Absolutely. Wow. This is great. Well, Dwayne, thank you once again for joining me and for sharing such practical insights on designing multimodal learning experiences for adult learners. I love what you said just now about in this conversation. It reminds us that engagement is not about adding more for the sake of just adding more, right? It's about making thoughtful choices that help learners connect with the content in meaningful ways. And part three of the mini series, we'll take a closer look at adult learning principles and how they can help us design more effective educational experiences. So once again, Dwayne, for anyone who wants to keep learning from you, what's the best place to follow you or connect?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

So I'm on LinkedIn. Uh you can always shoot me messages

Connect With Dwayne & Closing

SPEAKER_02 32:48

there or just send me an email. Uh more than like uh more than willing to connect with anybody and talk about instructional design or education.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:56

Yes, I love it too. It's always great when you get to connect with other professionals there on LinkedIn. It's a great place to do that. Absolutely. Great. Well, I look forward to part three and we'll uh we'll get that and kind of go deeper into the adult learning as I talked about. So that'll be exciting because that's one of my passions is adult learning and adult education.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

So look forward to it.

Jackie Pelegrin 33:24

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