Designing for Adult Learners With Dr. Dwayne Wood

Welcome & Series Context

Jackie Pelegrin 0:00

Hello, and welcome to the Designing with Love Podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 154 of the Designing with Love Podcast. I'm excited to have Dr. Dwayne Wood back with me for part three of our mini-series. So far, we've explored generative AI's impact on academic curriculum and discussed strategies for using multimodal techniques with adult learners. Today, we're taking a step back and focusing on something foundational, adult learning principles, one of my favorite areas. This conversation is especially important because no matter how advanced our tools become, strong learning design still depends on understanding how adults learn, what motivates them, and how we can design experiences that respect their time, experience, and goals. Welcome back to this show, Dwayne.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Oh, glad to be back.

Jackie Pelegrin 1:02

Yes, absolutely. Hard to believe we're on part three now. That's amazing. It goes by fast. Absolutely. So

Why Problem Based Outcomes Matter

Jackie Pelegrin 1:10

to start out this conversation today, what adult learning principles have shaped your work the most as an educator, curriculum developer, and instructional designer?

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Well, you know, when I when I think about you know the original adult learning principles, you know, that Knowles and came up, you know, when I look at them, I think you can't just like separate one because they all kind of influence each other, right? You kind of have to look at it very holistically. And, you know, there's a reason they're not called laws or because they're principles, right? There's ideas and they're guidelines for us to think about that these don't replace knowing your target audience. So I always like to make sure that you know that's clear. You know, you really need to know your target audience, and you can use these principles to help guide your thinking as you go through it. But if I had to choose one and I and I think through this, I really would focus on, and I I thought about this some more, and like, you know, how do I where do I really put this? And and really it's problem-oriented or application-oriented, is where I I think I really focus on, because to me that um makes connections to all the different principles, you know, because if it makes a goal for a learner concrete, right? Because we're we're problem or or an application-oriented. There's an end state that they understand. So that helps with the motivation. It also helps structure that self-direction, right? That we say that you know, adults, adult learners are coming with some self-direction. Well, they got that goal, right? That end state that they can work through. Um, and I and I think it's very easy to make some connections when you're oriented that way to the relevancy, which is something else that you know that uh adult learners are kind of looking for. Um and when when you when you can articulate that end state goal using that problem-based or application-based kind of outcome, I think learners, adult learners can now also start weighing against what they already know. What already experiences do they have coming into it? And they can start doing, they start doing that automatically. Um, and I think that what that helps with is self-echo efficacy, right? That confidence to of completing this, right? And achieving that outcome or goal. So they're all kind of, you know, again, they all kind of come together and related. But when I think about overall design, when I look at this, I really do emphasize that that problem-based or application-based outcome, right? That that end state that's very concrete.

Jackie Pelegrin 3:35

I like that. That's great. Yes. And I think adults really do uh they they love that problem-based approach, right? They like to be able to look at an issue or a problem and know how to get to that end state, right? And solve it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

And, you know, one piece I didn't mention was that kind of autonomy, right? Of able to make decisions. Well, if it's problem-based or application-based, there's probably more than one way to get there. So that actually allows that learner to have that little bit of that room, right, to make those decisions, which also will increase motivation. And, you know, again, so they they kind of bleed over into each other and they're all kind of together. But again, you have I think that kind of gets you going in the right direction.

Jackie Pelegrin 4:16

Absolutely. Yes, I love that autonomy. Yeah, that's that's important for adult learners, absolutely.

Put Relevance Up Front

Jackie Pelegrin 4:22

Um, and a couple of things you mentioned, uh, adult learners, they often want that learning to feel relevant and immediately useful, right? And be able to apply it. So, how can educators and designers make stronger connections between course content and real-world application today?

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah, it I you know, I again, I this is not always possible, right? Depending on your context and everything, but to me, the relevancy is how we structure our learning, right? Um, and so you know, we we break down what is what why is it relevant, right? And we can use that as a structure as we're building out that learning pathway for our learner. Because we shouldn't leave the explanation of relevancy till the end. Put that right up front because you're not gonna gain those advantages, right? We talked about motivation and self-direction and all these other things that um it when you can articulate the relevancy. Um, if you wait until the end, you you you lose out on getting those multipliers, those learning multipliers that we could you can have. Um so put it right up front, but also make it at the the organizing factor, right? Understand what why does this why is what we're doing relevant. Answer that question right up front. Um, you know, sometimes I like to put right up front, sometimes it doesn't mean as much if I tell the learner what why it's relevant. What works better is when they can explain or articulate why it's relevant. So, you know, have them do that right up front. We we, you know, um last session we talked a little bit about discussion forums. You know, we both have kind of like a love-hate, I think, relationship with discussion forums. Wouldn't that be a great first week discussion forum? Why is this content relevant to your context or your profession? And have that as the discussion question. So now you're you're you're putting the relevancy right up front. You're making the learner own it, right? There's ownership there. Um, plus there might be a little bit difference among your audience depending on you know what their context is. So it allows that um those different perspectives to come up. Um and actually you might get a wider the the you know, students that are in that discussion, we get a wider um idea of on the relevancy of the topic.

Jackie Pelegrin 6:33

I love that idea. We have something similar to that at GCU where there's a uh in week one, they have a required discussion. It's built into the system automatically. And it's a we call it a course content knowledge one. So it basically is what what area, you know, we want them to look at the syllabus and look at the objectives, see what do they have prior familiarity with coming in and what do they not and what where do they need help? You know, what kind of questions do they have and things like that. The only hard part, Wayne, is that I let students know in my my introductory post in my announcement, my first one, that these are the things I want them to do. And I want them to answer that day one. I don't want them to wait until later on in the week and into week two, because then we're already well into the course. And so I want them to do it on day one. It's it's a challenge sometimes because I it's not worth any points. So I think students don't aren't as motivated to cook to do it. But I almost feel like, well, there's doesn't I don't feel like there have to be points for them to do something, but I guess there has to be some type of I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? If you have something that is for them, but it doesn't have points associated with it.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

And and and this is a this is a challenge in the asynchronous environment, right? When you when you when you're not all in a classroom or even even in a virtual where you got everybody kind of in the room. Um, because again, there's everybody's gonna kind of access that content at a little bit different in the temporal, right? The time aspect of it. Um so when I think about that and I really want someone to do it, I in normally we would think that as like a no-stakes, like you said, right? There's no points associated with it. But in these type of um self-paced asynchronous courses, if there's not points associated with it, there's very little motivation for that learner to actually do it. That's just my kind of experience there. So I tend to make it low stakes, and so a few points, right? If you compare against percentages against the other assignments or other, you know, uh assessments, you know, it's it's a lower percentage, so it's it's a low stakes. Even then, you know, you get you get learners that you know they've already done the math, right? And they figured out that, you know, that they don't really need to do that to get the grade that they're looking for to pass. So um again, it's it's just tough. Like if we were in a classroom, right, there's a bunch of other techniques you can do. You know, um, you can do proximity, you can wait for those pauses, right? Those awkward pauses and get people to start to respond. And then usually once that happens and people start talking, then it it just snowballs. And then you have the opposite problem, right? You know, um that's that's just kind of my experience. But in that asynchronous environment, those those kind of like um, I don't want to say it's peer pressures, but those those social those social aspects are missing. And those social aspects can be learning multipliers. And and that's a challenge in these these really asyn asynchronous environments. Um, you know, and how how do we how do we achieve those um those aspects, you know, and there's a bunch of different ways we do that um in these in these online type environments. But again, it's it's a challenge.

Jackie Pelegrin 9:46

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

And it comes down to that knowing the audience too. Right, and knowing the context.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Mm-hmm.

unknown 9:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Especially like uh I know um a lot of uh adult learners, right, that in in the higher education space, um they're working full-time jobs, right? They're taking care of families, and they're probably sitting down late at night and they're starting their work and they're trying to meet deadlines, right, that are on the calendar. So that is already going to place some stress on what they decide to uh engage with and what they don't, and and how and how deeply they do. So, you know, just kind of understanding that context and how do you how do you help that um learner with overcoming some of those barriers and obstacles? It's not an easy, it's not an easy thing. This is this is a challenge, you know, across that I think we're always gonna have. Um there's not a like a simple

Motivation & Time Pressures Online

SPEAKER_03 10:40

answer to this. You know, it's gonna be come down. Well, it depends.

Jackie Pelegrin 10:44

Exactly. Yeah, it all depends that, you know, yeah, you're right. It depends on what their prior experiences were uh with college, right? And did they have a bad experience before? Or, you know, what what yeah, what's kind of coming into that? What is their their perception, right, of of it? Am I just going to pass these classes just to pass classes, right? And just to get a degree, or am I using this to further my career and to help make what I'm doing better for the people I'm serving? So um, if they have that servant leadership mindset, I think it I think they'll they'll want to do the work. And I can tell those students that do have that servant leadership mindset versus the students that are just doing it just to get a master's and and get that pay raise at work stuff.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

So yeah. And again, it's being able, how are we again? I always look at anytime a student is struggling or maybe not we're not achieving the goal, I always look at what did I not do right? That's the first place I always look. And you know, when we're talking about adult learning principles, maybe I didn't do a very good job in explaining the relevancy of the content. Maybe I could have done better there, right, to help improve that motivation of that learner to engage deep deeper in the in the content. Um, you know, and again, in an asynchronous environment, that's a challenge trying to figure out how do we do that.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Um, you know, right. That's true.

Jackie Pelegrin 12:13

Yeah, absolutely. And and also too, it can um it can be also on the instructors too, right? You know, if they have a high or a heavy cour course load, right? Even if you're adjunct, I as an adjunct, I can teach up to three classes at a time. But if I've got 10 in one class and I've got 15 in another, and you know, it yeah, I have to balance my my load, right? And be able, especially if you're working full time and trying to do that, are you just skimming by and doing the minimum of what an instructor does, right? And uh yeah, or are you going above and beyond and doing that? So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

And you bring up a you bring up a great point because what's happening, I can I I can't point to any specific example here, but um, with artificial intelligence, you know, if instructors are using that to provide feedback to the student, are we missing something? Are we missing something that adds to the learning? Um, again, just not the cognitive aspect, but that socialemotional aspect that it can be learning multipliers if you're just getting a bot response. You know, uh because again, instructor might be feel overwhelmed, just like you explained, right? Their workload and how does that impact learning? It's not a direct, but there's an indirect correlation of the instructor's workload and student learning. You know, so that's part of the design factor that we have to factor in. And that's a much larger lens, a holistic approach uh view of where does this learning fit within a larger ecosystem?

Jackie Pelegrin 13:47

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I try to make sure,

Discussion Forums That Feel Human

Jackie Pelegrin 13:50

Duane, that I use those discussion forums to my advantage. Like you said, that's an opportunity to bring in that social emotional learning. So what we have is we build in two discussion questions a week automatically, and online instructors can't change them. But we do have an opportunity to do one classroom assessment technique a week, but I I bump it up to two because I want to give my students extra opportunities. So what I do, I call it a media Monday post. So I pull something from the media, whether it's a video or something, you know, that's media related. And a lot of my students really like that. And so I ask them to watch a video or to uh look at some type of media and listen to a podcast, something, right? And then I have some questions that are related to that, and it ties into that week with the objectives. So a lot of my students gravitate towards those because they like that and they get to kind of have this back and forth, like, oh yeah, I I learned this in the video or something like that. And I I'll usually respond to those because I want them to see that I value, you know, those those times where they go above and beyond and answer those those additional questions as well and take the time to do that.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

That is absolutely fantastic, right? Um, because if you think about discussion forums, why do students start thinking of them as check the box activities? It's because no one really authentically responds to them, right? So, you know, that that social emotional piece gets lost. So now it's like, okay, I got to complete the activity to get my points and then move on, right? How many one metric you you should you should look at in discussion forums? How many times does a learner go above the minimum that's required, right, when it comes to posts? And then could you look at uh LMS analytics and see, does any learner go back after that week and look at the discussion forums? Those are some indicators that you may see that, you know, was that discussion truly engaging? Was it really meeting a goal or was it more of a check the box activity, right? When we start looking at some of those um analytics of that data that can help us understand what, you know, the because you know, when we look at data, when we're looking at, and we're kind of, I know we're getting a little off, but to me, I I always like to think of what data am I looking at and what is it telling me, right? Especially within a course. And a lot of times we look at, you know, grades, right? Because we shoot we assume that, you know, we could talk Kirkpatrick, right? That's a level two, so it's better than just student satisfaction being level one, because you know, right student satisfaction is student satisfaction, doesn't mean the learning actually happened, right? So you want that extra that other metric. But there's some other stronger, I think, metrics in there that we can put together and add to get a better story, if so we can answer that question, you know, is the learning that we're the design that we have, is it working? Is it producing the learning we're looking for? Right. Um, and we could get a better picture if we start looking at a little bit more data analytics. It takes more time and it you're right, again, so that might not be in the resources to be able to do, but if we can start thinking about those things um in, you know, what data are we collecting that's letting us know how effective this is.

Jackie Pelegrin 16:59

Right. And then it doesn't uh it and then it helps us to see, you know, are we designing our courses week by week in isolation, or does everything is everything connected, right? To the greater learning goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

You you bring up a great point, right? What um, you know, if if if the course is structured week by week, which a lot of them are, right? You know, um module one is week one or whatever it is, do students actually just learn the you know, get the content for module one, do the assessment, and then it's gone because now I'm on week two. Or do they got to carry over those things? Is the course design built to where it scaffolds, where now that content's got to be used? And it's kind of the idea of spacing or uh interle interleaving, right? You're you're you're weaving those things back in so that you're you're they're using that content or that knowledge or that skill a few times, right? Uh so that it you're increasing the chances of retention, right? Uh in the end state.

Jackie Pelegrin 17:56

I like that. Yeah, it's kind of like with the course I'm teaching now, they they do dig in and start using the ADI model as a framework, right? So they do their anal, they pick a real-world problem, uh, whether it's in the workplace or it's a it's something in their community, and they have to look back. Uh, the last week's assignment was where they had to take a look back at their needs assessment and then design their activities. And they had to write a reflection about what were some areas that you changed based on your um from your original needs assessment, because then they find out, oh, well, maybe yeah, I have some constraints I didn't think about that I have to consider. So it's very interesting because they do have to take a look back and and not just put that away and go, oh, I'm never gonna look at it again because I'm already past that. Well, no, you may have to come back to come back to it and look at it again.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

So and I'll tell you, I absolutely love that um because in instructional design, you you know as well as I do, we're always working with constraints. And you have to make trade-offs, right? Because you you don't have the resources to work with, or you know, something's constrained. So you have to make a trade-off and you have to be able to justify that trade-off. And what you just described is exactly that, right? You're you're you're you're starting to use the data that you've collected to work through that justification for a trade-off you're gonna have to make.

Jackie Pelegrin 19:16

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Good. Yeah, this is such a good conversation. I love this. Yeah. So

Autonomy Without Overwhelming Learners

Jackie Pelegrin 19:25

kind of speaking of that motivation, coming back to that and the learner autonomy and all of that, how do motivation, learner autonomy, and prior experience influence the way we should design learning experiences for adults?

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah, and I think we've kind of talked through some of this, but I'll kind of maybe we'll kind of just kind of separate these hours a little bit, you know. I'm gonna say motivation for last because everything we do within a course and its design and you know, the the content, I mean, almost everything is related to motivation. There's so much that goes into motivation, but there's also a lot of things that are outside of our control that affect uh impact a learner's motivation, right? Um, so you know, I I kind of like we we control what we can control. Um, and and motivation, we only have a, you know, again, as an instructor or instructional designer, you you only have a little bit of control there, um, you know, so we can control it. But prior experience. You know, um, there's good and bad here, right? One, your your learners are coming with some prior experience that you can use. Please use it. Um you don't don't discount it. What what in most of my experience, I like to have students share among each other because they have these great experiences and these perspectives that can help improve and multiply the learning, right? There it it's a it's a learning multiplier. But also know you can't make the assumption that all prior experience that's coming into your learning event is correct. Right? So you need pieces in your design where you can kind of figure that stuff out, right? Uncover misconceptions so that they can be corrected, or um, you know, some maybe incorrect understanding to help refine that. Um you still need that prior experience. You're gonna build off, you're gonna adapt it and change it and as you know, as you as you as you're learning through your process. Um so we just have to be aware of that. We can't just make the assumption that the all prior experience that a learner is bringing to our um learning design is is correct or oriented to it. So we we have to still build in those scaffolds. We still have to you know have that as a consideration as we're thinking through our design though and and those parts. Um learner autonomy, and that's that's giving choice, right? Giving the learner choice. You described a great example in your in the last, and we were talking the last question about you know having them choose the the you know the learning event they're gonna build based upon their context, right? That's that's an option, right? You're giving them some autonomy to work through that. Um where we have to be careful there is too much choice can actually add a bunch of cognitive load. Right. I give in my early teaching days. I I was I was like, I was I want to give all the choice I can to um my students to work with, um, you know, to to use this this principle. And what I found is I was giving them too much choice, and it was actually putting them in almost like analysis paralysis. They didn't know, right? They were stuck and it added a bunch of cognitive load and anxiety that I was like, okay, I need to, I need to reduce those choices, or maybe actually provide some things that they can choose from. So it doesn't put them in kind of that paralysis, right? Um, and they can move on and and and go through. So when you're thinking about giving that autonomy, um, I think we just got to be aware and think through that. Uh you may have encountered, right, when you had people choose in their context, did you ever have any a lot of people ask you, like they're having a hard time? Um I I've had that with students, right? It again, that it's start it's a little more, right, then they're ready to kind of so then you just kind of have a talk with them, right? And kind of get them to think about it and come up with an idea. But that's some scaffolding um that may need to be put in there when we talk about um learner autonomy in this in this thing. But you know, some simple things when I think about that is you know, like you already talked about choosing the topic or the you know, the case or whatever they're working on, right? That's a good way to do it, uh, especially if they're already in a professional field that the the course is related to. They probably got some stuff they can direct you know directly relate to, and it's real world and it's authentic, right? So that's that's some that's some pluses to doing that. You know, uh formats. I I I like to do this a lot um with my students is you know, it doesn't have to be a PowerPoint presentation, right? Um it can be any format they want to choose that they're comfortable with because the format itself is not the learning objective. So, you know, giving them some choice there um allows that, you know. Um and then this is a little harder. Um, and it I it's probably more related to some specific applications, but you know, allowing them to set the the goal for the for the course, um, you know, what they're trying to achieve within that course sometimes can be if you do that right up front, it helps with the relevancy. And uh, but sometimes we're a little constrained there um just within the policies and stuff that we have. But um it's important professional development um environments that can be very helpful, right? Let them set their PD goals. And then as the designer, you're helping them achieve it, right? Um that can be that's that autonomy there uh when you're going through it. And again, all that kind of feeds into that motivation, right? Um they feel like it's relevant, they got some control and choice involved there, right? Um, they're coming into it with some experience that that adds to that self-efficacy, right? So all the terms and stuff they're seeing and and the content that's coming up, it's not foreign. They they kind of know it, right? So they don't feel as intimidated. Um, and you know, we kind of that's some stuff we kind of know we want to know in an analysis when we do our design, so that we're not getting too far out someone's, you know, so they don't feel intimidated or they'll feel lost, but we're not so far within their experience realm that it's too easy and there's not the cognitive effort we're trying to get to that, to get that growth, you know. Um that that's easier to say than it is to do in practice, right? That that is a challenge. Um uh but that's why we're instructural designers, right? And and and we and it may take iterations to do that, right? As we go through iterations um and and we refine our learning event.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:28

Right. Yeah, that's true. I love that iterative process. I think it's so important to know that we're not gonna always get it completely right the first time. And so it's good to, you know, design it and then test it out with learners and see, okay, what kind of adjustments do I need to make, even if even when it is implemented and it goes live, it's okay to go back and make changes, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Yeah, that's that's hard. I I've noticed with my instructional design students that's hard for them to kind of accept. They're kind of in like this perfection mode, right? I I need to have everything perfect the first time. And and you know, the grading and assessment piece, depending on how it's designed, kind of reinforces that, right? Because they're getting a like a final grade on a product that they produce, which is not necessarily a final product, it's an iterative product. You know, so just kind of thinking through that um piece there is again, it if you can get to the 80% functional piece, we're gonna learn as it goes through the process, right? Um, and we're gonna make iterations and we're gonna make changes and updates because we're gonna learn. Um, as long as we're doing that evaluation phase, we're gonna collect that data and go back and make changes.

Jackie Pelegrin 27:12

Right. That's so true. You know, doing this made me think of one of my students in my current class, she posted a question in the class questions for them, and it's something that is visible to all students, and it's nice because they can post those questions and then the whole class benefits from it. And so she was asking about the portfolio because uh it used to be where it was, I think halfway through the program or somewhere around halfway through, they would start to develop their portfolio. But now we've stepped back and we actually have them develop it in that first instructional design class in the program, which is I think the fifth course in the program because they take some education courses and uh then they I think it's the fifth course in is when they take their first ID course.

Portfolios & What Hiring Managers Seek

Jackie Pelegrin 27:56

Um, so we have them build it in this course now, in the introduction course. But she was asking about the portfolio and when do you know when to uh swap out your artifacts? And then she started asking about the different technology tools. She's like, okay, well, you know, the program guide mentions all these different trials that we can try of captivate and storyline and all this stuff. And she's like, but when is enough enough, right? And I'm like, Yeah, you're right. I mean, she's got a good point. She's like, I don't want to be buying, you know, all these tools later on down the road. And I'm like, yeah, it's it's challenging, right? To, you know, as these technologies continue to to evolve, so it's it's hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

I I can tell you from you know, on the from being a hire, you know, um being on in looking at and hiring instructional designers, you know, I look at portfolios, um, but when I look at them, I'm looking for things where I'm gonna ask questions when we get into the you know the interview phase. And what I might ask is, how would you improve X Artifact? Because I want to see if they are reflective, right? They they just didn't put something together um that they they they you know, there's a room for improvement there. And I I'm really tool agnostic because that's something if if I bring you on board as as an employee, I'm gonna provide you training in whatever tool we're using. So to me, and and if you know, if you kind of know one, they're they're they're pretty close, right? You got the basic the terminology is different, right? Uh a trigger is not called a trigger, it's called something else, right? And so on and so forth. But they do the same thing, you know. So same with LMSs, right? Different, different, right, different terminology, but they kind of do the same thing. So to me, that's not when I think about the the tool itself, I'm not really worried about. What I'm worried about is does that instructional designer have the foundational of how people learn? And are they reflective and have that iterative and continuous improvement mindset, that growth mindset? That's really what I look for when I look for if I'm bringing somebody out. The technical stuff, it yeah, we're gonna provide to you.

Jackie Pelegrin 30:07

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Um but those other things are they that takes development and that takes skill building, um, right? And that's what I want to see. Um, it could be not a very good portfolio item, but if you can explain wh how you would improve it, that that's good. You know, I'm probably gonna give you the job.

Jackie Pelegrin 30:29

Right. You know, it's funny because I got my first job when I hadn't even finished my master's. Um doing so they with uh where I went to school and got my master's, they had a uh certificate built into it. It was embedded into the master's. So if after you complete five courses in the program, I assume they still have it this way, then you could you could opt in to get a certificate with that. So I decided to do that. And right about that time they had an opening in L D. And I was like, oh, this is really great. I'd love to do this. And they ended up offering me the job because of those things, right? Because I didn't know all the tools right away, but that was okay. I I had that that growth mindset. And so that was one of the reasons I got got hired over somebody else that had the degree already. So uh, and then I just ended up finishing the degree. So I was like, okay, this is really good. Yeah. So and then on the job is when I learned how to use captivate. So I tell my students that all the time. I'm like, don't feel like you have to be an expert in 15 tools because you're not gonna use all of them.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

There's just no way you're gonna use all of them. You know, and and and maybe that's you know, some of that is, you know, again, maybe you could say I'm a little biased here because when I think of instructional design, um, you know, education piece of it, I I I really am an advocate of that kind of apprenticeship type piece. So that the way I'm kind of thinking is aligned with that, right? You know, bring in somebody with those foundational type of uh you can almost talk them as like attitudes, right? And foundational skills. Um, I can I can I can make you a great instructional designer, right? Um, you know, because we'll we'll worry about the technical stuff later um because you have the foundation.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:09

Right. Exactly. It's almost like the KSAs, right? Knowledge, skills, abilities, that's what you're you're looking for, that foundation.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

I want that foundation, uh, especially that that growth mindset aspect, right? Um, you know, can you learn and adapt? Um, continuous improvement, right? Um not have that zero defects kind of mentality, right? It's got to be perfect the first time. No, it doesn't have to be. Um but can you go back and look at your product and understand where you make where you can make some improvements and then articulate that? That's that's a skill. And it and it unfortunately it's a skill that's uh one, it's kind of hard to develop. It takes time, right, to kind of do that. Um, but it to me that's an important skill.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:52

Absolutely. I love that. So to touch a little bit on the different tools and technologies, we know those are continuing to evolve, right? Day by day, even. Um, so it's still important to stay grounded in how people learn. We've talked about that earlier. With so much attention now on AI and emerging technologies. What's some ways that educators can make sure that they don't lose sight of the human side of adult learning?

SPEAKER_03 33:19

So focus on the learning outcome. I I I I say this all the time, right? You probably heard me say this already just in the few times we've kind of talked.

unknown 33:30

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Focus on that learning outcome first. Don't focus on the technology first. Think about, okay, what what outcome am I trying to achieve?

AI Starts With Learning Outcomes

SPEAKER_03 33:39

And then go backwards from that. Start thinking about what a student needs to achieve that outcome. You might come to the conclusion that you don't need technology to achieve that outcome. That's okay. Right? Um, where I think we falter in this is we are pressured or we feel like that we have to start with the technology. So now we have a technology in search of an outcome, which it's probably not going to work. Maybe you get lucky, right? And it and it works okay. Um, you got to go the other way. Start with the objective. Figure out what does a student need. And and you may, you may, you know, lay out that pathway and go, okay, um, student doesn't need technology, but technology in this part would help help that individual achieve that outcome and think through that process. Now you're getting into real educational technology integration into the curriculum or a design versus just tacking it on because you're tacking it on. Right? You can now describe how that technology is being used to better achieve that learning outcome. And that should be like we we should be able to do that every time. We should be able to have that explanation. Um, you know, and again, I I I completely recognize that there's a lot of pressures out there in different organizations. You know, they get this new shiny tool and they say everybody has to use this new shiny tool, right? Um, you know, but again, that can if it's not integrated correctly, you you you might get a neutral at best, but you're probably hurting the learning process because you're adding something cognitive load-wise to the learning experience to achieve that outcome. So I again I I emphasize so much, start with the learning outcome you're trying to achieve. Um, and then and then you can start thinking through how that technology potentially can integrated to improve it. And again, keeping that human element completely in mind, you know, first. That's first. That learning outcome and achievement is first, technology secondary.

Jackie Pelegrin 35:34

Right. Absolutely. You know, Dwayne, I can think of a most uh really recent example of this when we were working on a uh a counseling course and it was for a specific area, it was addiction counseling. And so we have an undergraduate and a graduate program that we work on for the university. And so we have these, and it's based on AI technology. It's called virtual interactive personas. And so what it does is it, I don't know if you and I talked about this in another one, but basically what it does is it allows the the AI tool to actually we create um clients, they're they're virtual personas of clients, and then the student acts as the the um instead of the client, well, yeah, the virtual active interactive persona acts as the client, and then they are the the counselor. So they have this interaction with the persona as if they're working with the client, and it's so realistic, it's amazing. And so we did it for an undergraduate course, and it was all about different types of addictions and how to help them through that and how to do the um the case notes and all of that. It's amazing. But then they wanted to do it for one of the graduate courses, and the program manager said, Hey, can you can you make sure that you use this for the for this topic and this assignment? So then when we were working with the the faculty subject matter experts, they were like, this doesn't really work. I don't think we can do this. We can integrate AI, we can have the students use AI and do like a case study, but these these particular personas won't work for this assignment. It's not gonna work in the course. And so we had to end up going back to the program manager and saying, yeah, we couldn't quite fit that in there. And so um, you know, rather than trying to shove it in there, let's not do that. Let's make it work for what we're trying, what's the outcome? What are we trying to achieve? So that's a good example, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:29

That is a great example. That's you know, it's perfect example of of doing that. You know, and this is just a kind of aside. One of the things I like you you talk about, you know, we do those personas and you can kind of have that conversation back and forth. Um, I think when you do that, because you can have those systems export like the transcript or um then have the individual evaluate themselves. Now you've gained an additional like you know level of learning that can happen.

Jackie Pelegrin 37:57

Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, and we have them do that. We have them export the transcript, right, in the conversation. And then they do. They have to do like a reflection on how did that go? What did you find that you did well at? And what where can you improve the next time? Because they're all like you said, there's always room for improvement. So that's great. And if they can find that and see that, that's great. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. So doing on to our bonus question, uh, what is one adult learning principle that sounds simple but is often overlooked in course design? I'm interested to hear your answer on this one.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

So I had to think about this one quite a bit, actually. Um what I came up with is the idea that we we talk about adult learners being self-directed, right? That's kind of a principle that they come in being self-directed. And I don't think we can have that as a hard, fast assumption. I we still need to provide the scaffolding, you know, to um we can't assume that an adult learner comes in and is able to monitor and evaluate their own learning

Self Direction Still Needs Scaffolds

SPEAKER_03 39:09

as as they're going through that. We need to provide that some scaffolding as part of our design and and make that to help that learner navigate that learning process. Because um, again, I think we we all have a little, I think, a little bit different understanding of what self-direction means. And there's different graduations there. And if we assume that someone's just fully self-directed and we do a design, we may be missing a lot of our audience in helping them meet that learning out outcome. So we I think we can assume a little bit of self-direction, but we need to scaffold it and still help lay out that learning pathway. That's where I think um we we it I I at least in my experience, I think we we take that self-direction as maybe sometimes um too literal, right? Uh, and and we don't build in some of those scaffolding tools that a different level of self-direction would need to be successful. Um and again, I I again I have a belief that you know anybody can learn anything, but it everybody needs something different to achieve that learning, right, that they're trying to do. So we have to be able to, in our designs, we have to we have to think of how we're meeting all of those different levels within our target audience to help them achieve that learning outcome, right? Not everybody takes the same path to get to the goal, you know, and how do we build that in there? And that's kind of when I was when I was thinking about this, uh, that self-direction came up as like being that principle that you know um could get could push somebody off a path, right, that's laid out for them because they're they're not as self-directed as that path was assumed. Right, exactly. I'm I'm trying to try to make that make sense. It made sense in my mind when I was thinking through it. Um I I really do think, you know, we we again as a instructional designer, especially now with all the technologies and we talk about AI, our role is going to become more and more and more of helping develop that pathway, the the guide to bring that learner through the learning pathway that works best for them. That can be a challenge, right? That's so that's where I think instructional designers will really be part of um this whole process um and and getting it set up for that learner so that they can achieve those outcomes.

Jackie Pelegrin 41:21

Absolutely. So true. Because self-direction doesn't mean they're doing it by themselves, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

So yeah, exactly. And I I think sometimes we assume that, right? If if we think about the principle just like face value, there's that assumption that, oh, they know they they're gonna take they're gonna take the initiative and know how exactly how to do all, you know, and navigate through this. I think that's a bad assumption. Lay out the pathway or multiple pathways, right? Um, and scaffolding for someone to navigate that.

Jackie Pelegrin 41:51

Right. Especially in something like an educational context, right? Like uh when they're when a student is going through a program, bachelor's, master's, whatever level it is, they're in that program for a reason. They're not there because they are self-directed and everything, they need that guidance. They're they're going through training, right? To become whatever that is that they're training to be.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

So it's good to put in those checks of um self-monitoring, right? Do you add in some of the maybe low stakes aspects where they self-assess where they're at, right? Right. That's something that you know a fully self-directed learner would do automatically, right? That that that's part of being self-directed. You monitor your own progress. But not everybody is fully developed that way. And so we need to build in some of those. Um that could be even something as simple as like providing a checklist, right? Of stuff that needs to be accomplished within a uh, you know, something as simple as that could help somebody that um and to to help them achieve those goals.

Jackie Pelegrin 42:52

Right. Because I get so many students in my in my classes, especially this first one, they've never done a portfolio before, uh, let alone one for instructional design. So we have a program guide that guides students through that. And one of the sections is what to put in your portfolio. And many of them appreciate that. They're like, wow, I didn't realize all this needed to go into a portfolio. Whereas, you know, a novice instructional designer may think, oh, well, portfolios, they they've done them before, and you're and if they assume they may not um give the students what they need to bring them that success when they go to that job and you know, they may have a portfolio that just is not good, right? And they may not know that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

And again, you know, a checklist, right? If we put if you put a checklist in a course, it's optional for the student to use.

Jackie Pelegrin 43:40

Right. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

You know, and and as an instructor, right, if I have that tool available and I notice someone's struggling, well, now I have something I can offer to the student. Hey, why don't you try this checklist that outlines all the things you need to do? Or here's this guidance um document that you you know, check this out and look at it, and it'll maybe help you. Right. So it just it just allows us to be ready to help those students. Um again, achieve again, the goal is to achieve that outcome. You know, and again, everybody maybe take a little bit different path to get there.

Jackie Pelegrin 44:10

Right. Uh absolutely. I love that. Uh yeah, that's great. I I learned something a little bit new today. Yeah, I love that. That's great. That's what I love about these conversations. I'm like, yeah, self-direction, so important, you know, not to assume. Absolutely. So, uh Dwayne, as we wrap up, what advice would you give to educators or instructional designers who want to make their learning experiences more effective for adult learners?

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Okay. Yes. You know, so when I when I again we we kind of talked about this, but you know, one laying out that clear pathway, right? That's supported and helps them achieve the goal. But I I I think there's some room to maybe misinterpret, right? Don't think of like effective adult learning as making the course easier.

unknown 44:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Because we we kind of talk about cognitive load, right? We're trying to reduce cognitive load. Well, we're reducing the stuff that gets in the way of the actual cognitive effort we want to happen to create learning, right? So the things we're doing is not making the course easier, it's helping us focus on the effort to achieve the outcome. So when we talk about our design, we're we're trying to make the design that makes the effort meaningful. So if you take the that idea of um effort meaningful and then connect it back to your principles, right, of relevancy, of motivation, right? I mean, we could go all through those and we can make those connections on how do we make that cognitive effort meaningful. You don't want to have that extra stuff where people are putting cognitive effort towards that's not helping you achieve the goal.

unknown 45:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

So that's why we talk about sometimes that in in when we do these less is more, right? As we're trying to achieve that outcome.

Jackie Pelegrin 45:53

Yep. Absolutely. It's that that KISS principle, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah. I worked with a gentleman, uh, an instructional designer, great instructional designer. And um I he was more experienced than me, and I was, you know, I was showing him something I was doing. He's like, here's here's what you do. Always make it elegant. And I was like, well, you have to, you have to you have to explain to me what elegant means. And he says, if you ever looked at something um it and it just looks clean and simple, um, he says, that's elegant. Um I always kept that in mind, and that it that always stuck with me when I'm making a design. If it doesn't look elegant, and again, you can add your kind of definition in there, I'm gonna go back and relook it. Um, because I may have a lot of extra stuff or things that are extraneous that are just gonna get in the way of that student uh or that learner trying to achieve the outcome.

Jackie Pelegrin 46:45

Right. Yeah. Cut out the fluff, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:49

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 46:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

And with adult learners, we talk about, you know, we took we we talked about, you know, put that relevance right up front. Uh when I when I was in the when I was in the army, we had this thing called bluff, bottom line up front. Make it explicit right up front for the learner. Let, you know, and and we and sometimes if you can, have them explain it right up front, what the relevancy is, because then they take a little bit of ownership.

Jackie Pelegrin 47:13

I like that because instructional design has its roots in the military, right? It started in the army, World War II.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

Yeah, Addy came Addy came out of World War II just because they they had a and that's why Addy is very process-oriented, not learning oriented, right? Um because it was it was meant to help develop um training for large amounts of uh people, right, in a in a quick and efficient way. And that's where Addy came out. Actually, SCORM comes from the U.S. Army also, um because they had to they were figuring out ways to package training uh uh in a digital format. Uh so they developed SCORM. At least the original version of SCORM.

Jackie Pelegrin 47:56

Right. Yeah. Uh and you know, and that that makes sense because they they had to, as you said, train so many soldiers quickly, right? And they had to get them out there and and ready for the battlefield, right? So they had to, yeah, had to get them in and out.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

Yeah, and that's you know, that's where I like when I I like talking again, I'm I'm kind of a instructional design nerd here. So um, you know, I always put instructional design kind of models or frameworks in a couple families, right? You have your process-oriented ones, which would be like Addy, backwards design, Sam, which SAM is just a kind of an agile method of Addy, right? Um then you have your learner-focused ones like Gagnier's nine principles, Kolb's experiential learning cycle, Merrill's first principles, right? Those can actually be part of the design and development of Addy. And then you can add a whole nother layer of project management, right? So I'm gonna do this project using the waterfall project management. I'm applying Addy, but I'm using Colb's experiential learning in the design and development phases. And by the way, I'm gonna apply Kirkpatrick's in my evaluation phase, right? So all these things kind of come together, right? Um, and it takes a good instructional designer that kind of understands how these things come together to develop that because what I just described might not work every single time. I might be able to have to do an agile method using Sam, you know, applying Gagna's nine principles, right? I mean it we have to understand the context in the project we're working with and look at all the tools we have available in frameworks and build that and put it together, right? And then we've got something we can start working, working through and using to produce a product.

Jackie Pelegrin 49:43

Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's great that you can kind of iterate, right? And even with the tools themselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

And it's there's almost like an infinite amount of combinations.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jackie Pelegrin 50:01

I love it. Well, Dwayne, thank you once again for sharing your insights on adult learning principles and how they can help us design more effective educational experiences. This conversation is such a helpful reminder that great instructional design starts with understanding the learner, not just choosing the right tool or technology. That's definitely a helpful reminder. In part four of this mini-series, we'll build on that foundation by discussing how instructional designers can embrace AI as a tool for innovative instructional design. So I'm looking forward to that one. So uh again, Duane, for anyone who wants to keep learning from you, what's the best place to follow you or connect?

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Again, I think the easiest is you can look me up on LinkedIn. Uh more than willing to you know talk, have conversations with anybody, or you know, email me at my uh NU email address and we can always set up a time to talk.

Jackie Pelegrin 50:50

Wonderful. I'll make sure to add that to the show notes so that everybody has that uh as well and they can connect with you there. So I appreciate you being willing to talk to novice instructional designers out there, whoever they are. Well, I look forward to part four, and thank you so much again, Dwayne. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

No, thank you.

Jackie Pelegrin 51:15

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Jackie Pelegrin 51:23

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