Oct. 19, 2025
The Power of Just-in-Time Learning with Grant Fuellenbach
In the latest episode of the Designing with Love podcast, host Jackie Pelegrin engages in an enlightening conversation with Grant Fullenbach, founder of GoFirst Consulting. The episode explores the fascinating intersection between construction methodologies and instructional design principles, revealing how systems thinking can transform businesses across industries.
Imagine saving your business $27,000 with just one extra measurement check. That's the power of systems thinking, and it's transforming how professionals across industries approach their work.
The conversation uncovers remarkable parallels between construction methodologies and instructional design principles. We explore how Grant's "Critical 19" scorecard system helps business owners identify exactly where they're succeeding, where they're struggling, and precisely what to do next – similar to how instructional designers use models like SAM (Successive Approximation Model) to create flexible, iterative learning solutions.
Whether you're an instructional designer looking to incorporate construction-inspired methodologies into your work or simply fascinated by how systematic approaches transcend industry boundaries, this episode offers invaluable insights. Grant's parting advice to document your daily learnings provides a simple yet transformative practice anyone can implement immediately.
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00:00 - Podcast Introduction
00:39 - Meet Grant Fuellenbach
03:41 - Breaking Down Operational Chaos
08:26 - Rapid Iteration Across Industries
13:05 - Practical AI Tools for Knowledge Sharing
22:40 - Just-in-Time Training Solutions
31:20 - Tips for Aspiring Instructional Designers
WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast.
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I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer.
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Hello instructional designers and educators, welcome to episode 56 of the Designing with Love podcast.
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I'm thrilled to have Grant Fuellenbach, the founder of Go First, consulting with me today.
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Welcome, Grant, hey.
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Jackie, thanks for having me, thank you so much.
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I appreciate you coming on today and being interviewed for the podcast.
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My listeners will love it.
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Yeah, I hope so, yes.
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So, to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and share what led you to focus on consulting professional builders and remodelers so that you can help streamline their operations?
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Yeah, totally.
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So my background it's a little bit different than a lot of other people in this space.
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I actually come from, like, the world of drones, for a drone company for a long time that specialized in software that used drone imagery and then it took that imagery and created 3D models that you could essentially measure off of build commercial buildings or ag or really anything from, and through that experience, not only did I get my hands on some pretty cool applications for you know just this world of like what's called VDC or visual design construction but also it opened up a lot of open up my eyes in a lot of ways towards gaps that builders of all sizes generally struggle with.
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And that's kind of where I found my for lack of a better term calling, which is helping to build operating systems for builders and for people in the trades who can take that love of crafting things and building things and actually make it scale so that they can build the type of business that they actually want to work in and work for, rather than having that just act as another job, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, that does, and that way they're not constantly trying to grow the business and trying to do that day-to-day operation.
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They can focus on the individuals within the company, right, and and cultivate those relationships and and do that and hopefully that day-to-day operations kind of helps take care of you know it, it can be automated, systematic in some ways, right.
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Oh, absolutely yeah, that's kind of a that.
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It's kind of my, systematic in some ways, right, oh, absolutely yeah, that's kind of my, I don't know.
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The thing I'm best at, I guess, is helping to scale automation.
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So every role I've had in my nine to five jobs up to this point has been director of sales operations or revenue operations or go to market.
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So that usually revolves around teaching salespeople how to use their tools, and that is one of the hardest things to do, especially when you know it's kind of teaching an old dog new tricks, but teaching an old dog sales force.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Yeah, it's hard to help people pivot right and to embrace new technology, new methods, new systems.
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Yeah, that can be hard.
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Yeah, that's true.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And so you say that most businesses are trapped in that operational chaos, which is kind of what you mentioned there.
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So can you break down what that chaos actually looks like on a day-to-day basis and what maybe the single biggest, often most overlooked cost that is associated with that?
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Oh yeah, that's a great question, so what that usually looks like is the owner-operator is the owner-operator.
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That's usually who we work with, people who've either started the company or who were on the ground floor of it, but the company's done well enough that they've scaled past like 1.5 million in annual revenue, with the operational chaos.
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What that usually means, though, is they have a pretty firm understanding of their existing project pipeline, so what projects they're actively working on, but they don't have a good idea of how do I grow this from here.
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We're kind of plateauing, hitting status quo when are my gaps?
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Where are my gaps?
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They don't.
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Most.
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Most often, they don't understand what is required to get to that next level as well as you know, um, how they're.
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They might have a rough idea of how they're currently doing, but they don't have a really specific dialed in, you know, report or dashboard that shows.
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Here's all the levers that you actually need to pull in order to make sure you hit your revenue goals next month or next quarter.
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Okay so.
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So you use maybe something like a, like a stoplight method, maybe where it's like.
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Red is like this is not healthy, you're not doing good here.
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Yellow is where you're they're kind of there, but they need to get to that and then green is maybe where they're doing really well.
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Yeah, kind of like that.
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One of the things that I kind of I developed is actually a scoreboard just called I call it the critical 19.
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And it's literally just a set of metrics that the builder, remodeler or the owner operator plugs in every week and it tells you you nailed it exactly, that it's green, yellow and red, and it tells you if you're on pace, ie in yellow, if you're exceeding expectations in green, or if you're below expectations in red, and it also tells you where that gap is and how to overcome it for next week.
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Wow, that's really great.
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And I can see that applying to other industries too, right, like education and like higher education, k through 12, looking at those, because metrics are used in so many industries.
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So I can see that working that method really working well, and then you could even take that method right and and kind of pivot it and adapt it for other industries too.
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So that's really great, yeah.
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Even manufacturing I could see it working really well for manufacturing, right, yeah.
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As well.
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Yeah, I mean manufacturing.
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That's where we got, like you know, kanban and Agile and lots of different project management methodologies.
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Right, exactly, and it's.
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It's interesting too because in instructional design we use those methods, we use Agile methods.
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So, for example, there's a certain model called the SAM model success, approximation model.
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So we have the usual adding model, which is the analysis, design, development, implementation, evaluation.
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But it's a systematic model.
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It's been around since the 1960s.
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But the hard part about that is that you usually can't move to the next until you finish one, that you usually can't move to the next until you finish one.
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And so if you have an agile team that thrives on that collaboration and that fast pace, where it's like, yeah, we need to turn this around in four weeks and not 12, which a lot of businesses are like that then SAM actually takes that and it breaks it down into three phases where you prototype, you iterate, you work, and so that can work well in any industry, but it's really great.
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And there's also rapid prototyping, where you do that prototyping and you work with your collaborators and your subject matter experts and they call it dirty design, where you're just basically giving them a rough design and saying, here, this is just rough, no technology really used, you're just, even if you just sketch it on paper, you know, you're doing that dirty design and it doesn't have to be perfect, it's just workable, something workable that you're doing with them.
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So, yeah, when you mentioned that, it just made me think of those rapid development models with that and agile models, yeah, absolutely.
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Iteration if you can pull it off.
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Rapid iteration is so tremendously valuable in pretty much everything you do as a business owner.
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Absolutely, Because then you know, with those rapid iterations, you're not waiting until the end to make big changes and then having to spend money and time trying to repurpose something or redo something, Because I've done that in the past with training and e-learning and it's cost so much money.
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And then I've learned the hard way.
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You know, when someone was like, oh, I forgot to tell you we needed this change, and I'm like that means I need to rerecord the whole entire simulation now, which is going to take me another three or four days and that takes time away from another project.
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So yeah as they say, time is money and I remind people about all the time.
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I'm like if you want me to spend extra time on this, that means that that's taking away from something else that I could be doing.
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So, yeah, construction, that I mean.
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It's the same concept, it's just called scope creep.
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You know exactly.
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Yeah, we use that all in education to scope creep.
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Yeah, yeah, where you, you have a certain scope of what you're working on, and then all of a sudden one more thing.
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Oh, we want one more thing added to this.
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And then the one more thing you know, becomes 510 things and they're like, oh, my goodness, and yeah it's.
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I have one, one particular director that oversees one of the programs and she's like, can we just do this little thing?
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And I'm like, but your thing that you think is little is not little to us, because it has a ripple effect, it affects everything.
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Yeah, so true.
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Yeah, it's neat how you can take those methodologies and those techniques and use them across different industries and you can see the commonality and the common thread between them Do you guys use out of curiosity, do you use, like Gantt charts, quite a bit to visualize that Like to show that director the ripple effect of what they're asking.
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Yes, we do.
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Yeah, so I love Gantt charts because it's a way to show you know who's responsible for what.
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And if we move something, like you said, if we move a timeline or a date, this is how it affects everything.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And so it's.
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It's interesting because I'll, I'll let.
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We'll let them know, yeah, if we, if we are delayed and getting a textbook, you know, then we can't, we can't run the course and then it's going to impact the students, it's going to impact the faculty.
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So, yeah, all the materials that they're not there.
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Just like with construction, if you don't have all your materials in place, you know you can't build a house it's not going to pass inspection.
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So you know, I use that analogy quite a bit of the building of a house and that's how we have to treat training and professional development is you start with the foundation first, you build that, and so you we.
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I use the house analogy all the time, but building a house, yeah, Because people can relate to it.
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Yeah, the Instagram reel I found a long time ago, um, and I forget who said it, but I really loved it.
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He, he used building the house analogy too and he's like if you look at the timeline of building a house, you'll see that the vast majority of that time is actually spent on the foundation.
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And once you, you know, in terms of doing survey work around the topo or around the, the plot, um, making sure the, the ground is level, digging the hole, pouring the concrete, uh, putting in the rebar, all of that takes the most amount of time and then putting up everything else is kind of secondary.
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Right.
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And in the real he said it a lot more glamorously than that, but it just resonated with me.
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Yeah, that's so true, because if you don't have a solid foundation, then the rest is just not going to work.
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It's going to fall apart.
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Yeah, that's so true and that's yeah, that's true in education and you know all those things.
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Yeah, if you don't have a solid foundation, yeah, it's kind of everything else, all the materials, all the all the other stuff is just kind of, yeah, doesn't really matter much.
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It doesn't hold weight really so yeah, yeah, nice.
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Yeah, I love that.
00:12:52.567 --> 00:13:02.929
So I read too on your on your Web site and, and that you have this solution, which is a unique blend of that proven systems plus that practical AI.
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So can you give a real world example of a standard training process that becomes more powerful once that practical AI tool is applied to it?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And this one this is probably my favorite one because it's applicable across any industry and it's currently free, and it's a Google tool that they released, I don't know, maybe like a year ago, but they constantly make iterations talking about that.
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To it it's called Notebook, if you audience is familiar with it, but what's really neat about it is you can upload any type of source into it.
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Notebook's an AI model that, unlike ChachiBT or Gemini or Grok or any of those, it isn't a large language model.
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It's a RAG model and that stands for Retval, retrieval, augmental, augmented generation so basically, in less nerdy terms, it unlike chat gbt where, if you, you know, plug in a pdf into your knowledge hub and ask it something, it's not only using that article, but it's also using the web.
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It's using its own context.
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It's you know, it's really impossible using that article, but it's also using the web.
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It's using its own context.
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It's you know, it's really impossible to tell where that data came from in its answer.
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Notebook is different because it will generate an answer only using the sources that you input.
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So if you're talking about a course, like one of the courses that you teach, if you input it in your syllabus, your course materials, the transcripts from all of your lectures, you know relevant YouTube videos or you know other sources, you essentially now have a knowledge hub of everything that's shareable for that course and then you can do a handful of things with it.
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You can turn it into a mind map, you can turn it into a study guide, a full video if you want to watch a movie about that concept, a podcast.
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Just the applications with that are tremendous for knowledge sharing.
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Yeah, wow, that's amazing.
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Yeah, it sounds like it's a really powerful tool to be able to do that, and the fact that it doesn't cost anything, I think, is really great too.
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Yeah, wow too, yeah, wow and um, I mean, I there's a full, just like there is with anything.
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There's a pretty active subreddit community for notebook lm and that's one of the few that I follow very religiously because people are always building tools and chrome extensions and add-ons for it.
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Just as an example, I found one last week that allows you to basically scrape full YouTube playlists and upload it to a single notebook.
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So, as an example, if this show was on YouTube, I could go and grab every video that was recorded and plug it into a notebook and then turn that into a study guide around.
00:16:27.227 --> 00:16:32.952
What are the best practices from all of the interviews Jackie's done with this show?
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Wow, that's amazing.
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Wow, Because I've done interviews for two years, so that's a lot of it's a lot of content, right.
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Yeah.
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To be able to put it in a digestible format.
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I think really helps.
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Yeah, that's good for, yeah, for students, for faculty, to kind of say here's, here's what's coming out of it, here's the common themes and everything that that's coming out of that.
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Wow, that's great.
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And so you use it for your business too, right?
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Oh, yeah, with clients.
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Yeah, so every relationship I start with a new client, I'll actually create a new notebook for that client and in there I'll have any meeting transcript, project scopes, our pricing proposal, contracts, anything that's relevant.
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I'll actually host it into that notebook and then so if I run into a question or an issue or anything, I can quickly say when was the last time I spoke with Jackie, what did we chat about, what are the next steps, and it will reference everything it knows about our relationship and create a little answer.
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Wow, I love that.
00:17:44.684 --> 00:17:50.865
So that's better than even like tools like OneNote or there's other tools out there too, but we use OneNote at work.
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But yeah, onenote is kind of limited because they do have a web-based version, but it's it's limited what you can search and what you're able to do with it, so it has its limitations.
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So it sounds like that is even even more robust because you can cross-reference things and conversations.
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Yeah, totally right?
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Yeah, I mean, it's not.
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You know, they're like tools like one note or obsidian or Evernote if anybody uses Evernote anymore, those are awesome for note-taking and sharing just documents, I think, a great tool, for I guess you know they could be used like together, mutually symbiotically.
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I guess we want to use that word right yeah that's the cool thing about notebook is it's not really like a true competitor to a lot of note-taking apps.
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It's more of, I guess, like apps.
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It's more of, I guess, like a knowledge-sharing app more than anything else?
00:19:02.936 --> 00:19:05.244
Yeah, it can serve as a companion to what you already use.
00:19:05.855 --> 00:19:08.983
So it's not necessarily a replacement for it.
00:19:08.983 --> 00:19:18.201
So that's good, yeah, because when we were trying to figure out what kind of collaboration tool to use at our company, we ended up going with Trello.
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And that's an agile type of method too, because you can do Gantt charts and stuff like that.
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And it was really funny because I've done OneNote training sessions and professional development sessions for 14 years I think or so.
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However long I've been with the company 11 years but even before that I was doing sessions on that and someone said to me well, will Trello replace OneNote?
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And I said, no, no, no tool replaces another, it's just they compliment each other.
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One is good for one and you can find the benefits for each one, and then you just you adapt and you, yeah, you use the one that you know works for your situation and yeah, so it's really really neat.
00:19:57.821 --> 00:20:07.546
And now Microsoft has something similar to Trello, and I don't know if you've seen that, but it's got like the feature of like the boards and the cards.
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And what's really nice is that we collaborate with subject matter experts and individuals at the colleges and plus ourselves, and so if we have outside people, it's really hard because of IT security.
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It's hard to share all of that.
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We can't share SharePoint documents because those are housed internally.
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So being able to have a tool like Trello is really helpful, but there's limitations to what Trello can do.
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So we want to be able to take some of that brainstorming and all of that and be able to have that automatically feed into the tools that we use to build the courses, build the program.
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So having a Microsoft tool is really nice because then we can share it out and we can say, okay, you're not associated with Grand Canyon University, but that's okay, we can give you access.
00:20:56.926 --> 00:20:58.821
And you're not having access to all of our systems, but just that select amount, but that's okay, we can give you access.
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And you're not having access to all of our systems, but just that select amount.
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So that's what's great about the, the technology and how they've been able to to do that.
00:21:07.665 --> 00:21:08.890
So it's pretty neat.
00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:14.252
But it just takes that extra layer, those extra layers of IT security, to get past all of that.
00:21:14.252 --> 00:21:33.138
And I'm sure you've witnessed you've gone through that too with different companies, you know being able to get access to information and trying to share that and with their proprietary information, you know, so it's it takes some hoops to jump through to get it, but I'm sure once you get it it's really helpful to have that.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:45.028
Yeah, that's honestly one of the biggest hurdles or objections we usually run into with anyone that we work with is you know how secure are these tools?
00:21:45.028 --> 00:21:59.771
And that's one thing that we really prioritize too, just because we know how important security is, and almost everything we work with is either SOC2 compliant or equivalent, you know.
00:21:59.832 --> 00:22:10.413
Right, that's important, yeah, especially if you've got, you know, competitors in the area that are all competing for you know for customers and then competing for you know that.
00:22:10.413 --> 00:22:20.651
You know that prized, you know client that they want that, they want themselves, you know for the builders and and all of that, and be able to have that competitive advantage.
00:22:20.651 --> 00:22:22.453
You know they don't want that getting out there.
00:22:22.453 --> 00:22:26.122
So that's yeah, that's so important Absolutely.
00:22:26.442 --> 00:22:26.722
Yeah.
00:22:27.285 --> 00:22:28.227
Yeah, that's great.
00:22:28.227 --> 00:22:31.354
So you know, we talked a little bit about training.
00:22:31.354 --> 00:22:37.244
So we all know how much of a difference the right training can make, and before the interview we talked about just-in-time training.
00:22:37.244 --> 00:22:42.894
So can you share an example of a tool that you've used that makes delivering that just-in-time training easier?
00:22:43.674 --> 00:22:45.237
Yeah, absolutely so.
00:22:45.237 --> 00:22:55.904
In construction, or in most industries, there's always this driver of creating SOPs for your most important workflows.
00:22:55.904 --> 00:23:03.646
Or talking about what we were just chatting about about how do you use trello and one note together?
00:23:03.646 --> 00:23:11.145
Right, that that workflow of um, these tools are companions, but how do they actually work together?
00:23:11.145 --> 00:23:12.710
What's the best practice for?
00:23:12.710 --> 00:23:25.634
For turning that into a, a document or a video or something that's tangible to whoever needs to understand it and actually act on that data or that knowledge, I guess?
00:23:26.678 --> 00:23:52.666
And so just-in-time learning or JIT learning is really interesting, but it's very applicable to construction when you have a bunch of contractors or subcontractors out on a job site and you really want to make sure that they're following best practice when installing a window or installing insulation or maintaining the job site cleanliness or OSHA.
00:23:52.967 --> 00:24:34.859
You know there's so many different things and not to go back to that tool, but notebook is actually a killer tool for that too, because you can really upload all of your SOPs If they're in a more standardized format or even if they're in a video, into a shared notebook, and as long as all of your subs have access to it and I've actually built a few apps just built off of notebook itself, and as long as all of your subs have access to that notebook, if and when they run into an issue, they can literally just open up the app type in a prompt.
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:37.711
How do I install this?
00:24:37.711 --> 00:24:40.278
You know quartz countertop.
00:24:40.278 --> 00:24:41.126
How do I measure it?
00:24:41.126 --> 00:24:52.375
Using the laser measure, whatever it is, and the notebook model will actually tell them the answer, based off of the sources or those SOPs that were inputted.
00:24:53.246 --> 00:24:55.085
Wow, that's amazing yeah.
00:24:56.949 --> 00:25:02.479
So it's one of those things that it is a phenomenal way to transfer knowledge.
00:25:02.479 --> 00:25:12.999
The hardest part with that, as it is with any tool, is consistency, is making sure that people know how to find the answers themselves effectively.
00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:38.496
Right, exactly Because you want to give them that autonomy, right to find it and not have to always rely on asking their supervisor or something like that, but being able to, to have that that autonomy and and to be able to have that self-directed learning is so important yeah to um, and then if they can't find the answer, they go to their, their supervisor or their or something like that and say, hey, you know, I still can't find what I'm looking for.
00:25:39.045 --> 00:25:51.055
I just want to make sure I'm doing this right before I actually install this, or fix this yeah exactly Because they know if they don't do it right then they have to go back and redo it Right, and then that's added costs at time.
00:25:51.055 --> 00:25:57.760
So, and I'm sure the supervisor would not be happy about that if they messed it up and then they had to redo it.
00:25:57.941 --> 00:26:02.724
So I mean the call I just had before this, a client of mine.
00:26:02.724 --> 00:26:50.755
Um, she's telling me a story of a kitchen remodel and it's all marble countertops and it looks gorgeous now, but what she was telling me is that the contractor actually had to eat like a twenty seven thousand dollar cost because they had a marble countertop measured out for the island instead of the countertop and so they cut out the essentially the space for the grill in the space that was supposed to be for the sink and it's one of those things if you just slowed down and remeasured or made sure that you were doing it correctly, or even pulled out notebook it was like am I doing this correctly?
00:26:51.244 --> 00:26:56.539
You literally would have saved yourself more than $27,000.
00:26:59.327 --> 00:27:01.151
That's a big mistake.
00:27:01.151 --> 00:27:02.333
Yeah, a yeah, definitely.
00:27:02.333 --> 00:27:05.377
Wow, I'm sure somebody got their.
00:27:05.377 --> 00:27:08.289
Uh, you know what chewed out after that?
00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:11.196
yeah, yeah, one of those things too.
00:27:11.196 --> 00:27:29.373
You know, it's like the the amount of like check uh boxes that you and um items that should be checked off before you go to cut or before you go and literally execute or act on a project.
00:27:29.373 --> 00:27:45.080
The amount of things that need to be checked off or should be checked off, I would say should be different between a project like that and even, I don't know, replacing a door, doorknob you know, yeah, exactly.
00:27:45.080 --> 00:27:50.656
Not all tasks should be classified the same in your to-do list.
00:27:51.305 --> 00:27:52.366
Right, that's so true.
00:27:52.366 --> 00:27:58.019
Yeah, yeah, there's that that saying of measure twice, cut once.
00:27:58.019 --> 00:27:59.970
Right, yeah, that's so true.
00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:02.316
Yeah, and that's true in a lot of things.
00:28:02.316 --> 00:28:06.594
You know, we think of it in construction and things like that.
00:28:06.594 --> 00:28:10.711
But I tell that to my people on my team all the time.
00:28:10.711 --> 00:28:17.528
I'm like let's make sure we measure twice and cut once, because we don't want to have to go back and redo work again.
00:28:17.528 --> 00:28:18.449
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely I love that.
00:28:18.449 --> 00:28:18.970
Redo work again.
00:28:18.970 --> 00:28:21.232
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely I love that.
00:28:21.232 --> 00:28:25.538
That's that's a great, great idea Be able to have that information there.
00:28:25.538 --> 00:28:28.300
And it brought to mind like micro learning.
00:28:28.300 --> 00:28:36.432
Micro learning is such a huge thing and it's so effective because you can give people that bite size training on the go.
00:28:36.432 --> 00:28:46.838
I'm sure they have tablets right that they can pull up the information, so it's readily available on the job for them, so that they can be on site and just pull up what they need when they need it.
00:28:46.838 --> 00:28:49.815
So I'm sure that makes it really helpful too.
00:28:55.912 --> 00:28:56.932
Absolutely share.
00:28:56.932 --> 00:28:58.474
Oh, this is what we did yesterday.
00:28:58.474 --> 00:29:33.696
And then you know iterate on that, saying, oh uh, the electrician installed three new outlets, okay, so now I need to learn, um, how to say, like you know, install the drywall or whatever around those outlets right um, yeah, so I guess just uh, not only absorbing but also being able to organize and understand, like what you need to learn and what you need to know next, is really, really cool.
00:29:35.098 --> 00:29:36.039
Yeah, I like that.
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:37.067
That's a great.
00:29:37.067 --> 00:29:50.933
Those are great tips, absolutely, of being able to give that, deliver that training right then and there and using those tools to to be able to make it happen so that's accessible for all the, all the individuals that are working on those projects.
00:29:50.933 --> 00:29:53.298
Yeah, that's great, wonderful.
00:29:53.298 --> 00:30:00.928
So, as we wrap up, what are your top tips or advice for listeners who are looking to transition into instructional design or maybe even training?
00:30:00.928 --> 00:30:02.911
Maybe they're just starting out in the field?
00:30:02.911 --> 00:30:05.513
What are some of those tips and advice you could share?
00:30:06.194 --> 00:30:06.734
Number one.
00:30:06.734 --> 00:30:11.141
I mean, you know we're in this age of AI that we're currently in.
00:30:11.141 --> 00:30:20.634
It's easier than ever to document.
00:30:20.634 --> 00:30:23.212
So, whether you're in a course or you're out in a field, or just try and document your learnings and then put them somewhere.
00:30:23.212 --> 00:30:24.826
Put them somewhere that you're in a course or you're out in a field, or just try and document your learnings and then put them somewhere.
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