WEBVTT
00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:04.107
Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast.
00:00:04.107 --> 00:00:11.753
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer.
00:00:11.753 --> 00:00:20.961
Hello instructional designers and educators, welcome to Episode 72 of the Designing with Love podcast.
00:00:20.961 --> 00:00:29.769
I'm thrilled to have Dr Norena Columbaro, a talent development leader and instructional design coordinator at Perform for Life Consulting, with me today.
00:00:29.769 --> 00:00:31.841
Welcome, Norina, Thank you.
00:00:31.922 --> 00:00:37.061
Jackie, it's good to be here and I can correct you it's Performance for Life, but that's okay.
00:00:37.662 --> 00:00:39.006
Oh, I'm sorry Performance for Life.
00:00:39.006 --> 00:00:41.811
Yes, Thank you Appreciate it.
00:00:41.811 --> 00:00:46.170
I must have forgotten that last part in there so I appreciate that yeah great.
00:00:46.170 --> 00:00:52.310
So, to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what inspired you to focus on talent development and instructional design?
00:00:52.993 --> 00:00:53.898
Oh, this is always hard.
00:00:53.898 --> 00:00:56.506
I hate talking about myself, but I'm going to do my best.
00:00:56.506 --> 00:01:00.860
Okay, sure, so you know what inspired me to get into instructional design.
00:01:00.860 --> 00:01:08.253
It was a long road and, as I was kind of chatting with you a little bit earlier, I've been doing this for a long time, as you can imagine.
00:01:08.272 --> 00:01:33.522
You see the grays and you know I started out in scientific and technical communication and I was doing the old PowerPoints and graphic design and all that good stuff back in the day when they actually hired you know departments to do this kind of stuff and it just felt like I needed to be around people and connect a little bit more than just user manuals and presentations.
00:01:33.522 --> 00:01:40.481
And so I had a wonderful opportunity to move into the company that I was working at.
00:01:40.481 --> 00:02:00.469
Their department, their training and development department, kind of took off from there and I just fell in love with it and it was more than just the facilitation it was also creating, using my background in scientific and technical communication and working with subject matter experts, and it's just been a wonderful ride.
00:02:00.469 --> 00:02:26.914
I've been in business now for almost 27 years now and, as I was mentioning to you, jackie, I've seen this profession evolved, evolve, you know, very significantly over those years, but I still have a love for it and particularly I love seeing more people coming into this area because it's exciting, it's a fun profession.
00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:28.925
Absolutely yes.
00:02:28.925 --> 00:02:35.887
It kind of reminds me of the passion that my students have when I'm teaching them in the graduate program at Grand Canyon University.
00:02:35.887 --> 00:02:41.067
So it's exciting to see that they have that love and passion for education in general.
00:02:41.067 --> 00:02:47.954
But then to see that they want to come into this profession and they have that excitement, and it doesn't matter what age they are.
00:02:47.954 --> 00:02:48.495
They can.
00:02:48.495 --> 00:02:56.865
They can be even older than me, younger than me and I'm like, wow, there's no boundaries to the age and to the level of experience that they have.
00:02:56.865 --> 00:03:01.781
They can come in it and really learn, learn it and love it so like we do.
00:03:01.781 --> 00:03:02.742
So I love that.
00:03:02.742 --> 00:03:04.766
Yeah, it's wonderful.
00:03:04.766 --> 00:03:05.568
It's a.
00:03:05.568 --> 00:03:06.030
It's a.
00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:16.191
It's a great type of profession because, as we know it, it goes across all different sectors, and so that's what makes it so appealing to so many people, I think.
00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:33.013
Absolutely Well and I think what's really exciting is, you know I have worked with about 60 or more companies, organizations, nonprofits, I mean you name it across the board internationally over the years and you get to learn new things.
00:03:33.013 --> 00:03:50.551
You know, you come in with your background in instructional design and you get to use all the models, methodologies, theories and try to negotiate the reality and, more importantly, get to work with these subject matter experts that are amazing and learn so many different topics.
00:03:50.551 --> 00:04:12.870
I mean, I've learned, you know, about corrosion and different topics in health care and customer service and supported employment recently with the state of Oregon, and that's just naming a few topic areas that I learn more about and that's what I find really exciting is that connection.
00:04:13.431 --> 00:04:44.725
Absolutely yeah, because you can tell the subject matter experts are passionate about their field and what they do, and so you're bridging together their expertise and then you're taking your expertise of instructional design and learning development and taking those and then and putting that into something that's digestible for the learner so that they have something that comes out on the other side and you know, you see it kind of start, and then it it becomes something that is tangible and I love that, yeah, and it's pretty cool and it's really cool.
00:04:44.745 --> 00:05:14.863
I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but when your subject matter experts start getting really excited about adult learning theory and you know, instructional design themselves and I've had instances where my subject matter experts actually decided to just go into instructional design themselves and they're doing great it's really cool to watch and you know I it's, it's fun to see other people start to geek out on this, because you always feel, I mean, for years you felt kind of alone.
00:05:14.923 --> 00:05:28.291
it's like you know, these subject matter experts would just, you know, kind of throw the content over the wall and you, you, you know, communicate with them and and work with them to develop the curriculum or, you know, know the learning events et cetera.
00:05:28.291 --> 00:05:33.685
But now they want to get involved in the process on that side too, and it's I love that.
00:05:33.685 --> 00:05:35.807
It's really cool to watch that excitement.
00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:36.762
That is.
00:05:36.762 --> 00:05:37.846
Yeah, that's true.
00:05:37.846 --> 00:05:45.646
I'm working on a course, some new courses and a graduate certificate right now and the subject matter experts are like that.
00:05:45.646 --> 00:05:56.463
They're very passionate and they want to know what can I do better at you know, because they they know the process they know how we work of, of how what we need from them in order to make a course what it is.
00:05:56.463 --> 00:06:03.206
But it's really great when they they welcome that feedback, because sometimes subject matter experts they just want to run with it.
00:06:03.206 --> 00:06:13.738
They want to take what they have and call it good, like you said, what's going to stick to the wall, and then that's it and I'm like, oh, it's not, or to check off a box or something like that, and yeah, you're going to get that.
00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:30.776
But it's really cool because I think more often than not, especially in the recent years, because of the technology and the access to different tools that are out there, people are getting a little more excited about that instructional design side too.
00:06:30.776 --> 00:06:34.910
The subject matter experts are willing to step out of their comfort zones a little bit and try some new things.
00:06:35.420 --> 00:06:36.262
Wow, that's great.
00:06:36.262 --> 00:06:38.045
I love that Wonderful.
00:06:38.045 --> 00:06:48.571
So you, as I read through your information, you focus on empowering organizations through continuous improvement, which I love, and that learner-centered design, which is so important.
00:06:48.571 --> 00:06:50.045
I teach that to my students all the time.
00:06:50.045 --> 00:06:58.807
So, from your experience, what's the biggest challenge companies face when moving beyond training to that real performance, and how does action mapping help with that?
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.608
Oh boy, it's going to be an ongoing thing.
00:07:01.608 --> 00:07:08.494
As I mentioned earlier, a lot of the theory and models that we learn in school, they're great.
00:07:08.494 --> 00:07:18.353
Putting them into practice is another thing, right, right, and I know that Kathy Moore, I'm kind of getting a little off track, but Kathy Moore always talks about do you want to be an order taker?
00:07:18.353 --> 00:07:22.310
Sometimes you got to be Okay, let's face it, yeah.
00:07:22.310 --> 00:07:28.901
Okay, let's face it, yeah.
00:07:28.901 --> 00:07:46.031
But what I try to do is influence the stakeholders from the very beginning of the return on investment, kind of pulling in some Jack Phillips, right, and and that's part of this too, I think, with instructional design is you're not so focused on the course, you're focused on what is the problem we're trying to solve?
00:07:46.031 --> 00:07:46.413
Right?
00:07:46.899 --> 00:07:52.682
And if you get people to understand the benefits of the problem that you're trying to solve and it does.
00:07:52.682 --> 00:07:57.033
It requires some influencing and then sometimes it requires you to make a decision.
00:07:57.033 --> 00:08:01.978
You got to either walk away or you know you have to look at the bigger picture too.
00:08:01.978 --> 00:08:20.237
Maybe you have to be an order taker every once in a while, but those times where I'm actually able to influence somebody to look at what the problem that we're trying to solve and what the performance is that we're looking for as a result of this learning event is, you know that's amazing and we do.
00:08:20.237 --> 00:08:23.564
We see measurable impacts and you know everybody's all about.
00:08:23.564 --> 00:08:35.297
You know, making sure that we have data to back everything up, and oftentimes that resonates with most people in getting them aligned with that whole idea of let's not just put together a bunch of PowerPoints.
00:08:35.297 --> 00:08:40.028
Let's really focus on what is expected on the job and how are we going to get there.
00:08:40.028 --> 00:08:46.390
And, quite frankly, is a learning event going to take care of that or is it just going to be one piece of the puzzle?
00:08:47.019 --> 00:08:57.046
You know, back in the 90s there was a book and it's still around, and I know Dana Gaines Robinson I mean, this is back in the 90s Performance consulting.
00:08:57.046 --> 00:08:58.767
Have you heard of that, jackie?
00:08:58.767 --> 00:09:02.202
I'm sure you have right and it's still around.
00:09:02.202 --> 00:09:10.413
You know, and even though, though, practitioners, we learned about it and we push back over and over again, it's going to be an ongoing struggle.
00:09:10.413 --> 00:09:11.337
It just always is.
00:09:11.337 --> 00:09:15.990
There's always going to be organizations that you work with that just want to check off the boxes right.
00:09:15.990 --> 00:09:18.785
Compliance training is an example of that too.
00:09:18.785 --> 00:09:29.063
However, those clients that you can get that will allow you to get them to see that performance is what it's really all about, absolutely.
00:09:29.764 --> 00:09:32.671
Right, yeah, so true, yeah.
00:09:32.671 --> 00:09:34.653
So it's kind of like with the Addy model.
00:09:34.653 --> 00:09:39.241
You know, when someone uses the Addy model, sometimes organizations want to skip that analysis.
00:09:39.241 --> 00:09:52.768
They want to get right to development, oh yes, and then they want to skip evaluation and they want to just roll it out and it's like you're missing, like the two pillars of you just can't do what's in the middle, you're missing those two pillars that hold it up and they feed into each other.
00:09:52.847 --> 00:09:58.331
Right, because value then informs the needs analysis on an ongoing basis for continuous improvement.
00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:05.759
So it it is you know it's, it can be a hard sell but, just like anything else, you gotta go in with the business mindset.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:24.969
You have to go in with being able to influence them and, um, and that's why instructional design, yeah, you got to learn about the models and the theories and everything, but really learning how to consult, really learning how to, you know, be business minded when you go in there, even if it's a nonprofit uh, is a nonprofit?
00:10:24.969 --> 00:10:26.192
Is a critical set of skills.
00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:28.865
Absolutely yeah, I would agree.
00:10:28.865 --> 00:10:36.171
And even like in higher education and K through 12, I've learned that through my students but I've got the higher education experience.
00:10:36.171 --> 00:10:46.783
But most of my students are I would say about 90% of them are in K through 12 education and so they talk about, like, the standards and all these things and I'm like, if you're, going to stay in.
00:10:46.822 --> 00:10:51.145
K through 12 and you're going to do like instructional coaching or instructional design.
00:10:51.145 --> 00:11:02.100
Yeah, you know, yeah, you're going to see that, but you also have to think about, like what we were talking about, that performance base, and so it's very interesting to hear how much you know.
00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:07.884
Unfortunately, bureaucracy is behind all of that, but I'm like you got to get past some of that reality.
00:11:07.884 --> 00:11:09.849
Yeah, reality, reality.
00:11:10.089 --> 00:11:13.125
Yeah, that's right, you know, and that's what you got to work with.
00:11:13.125 --> 00:11:28.764
And you know, I have to say, the most fulfilling projects that I have been on it's been because the organizations have been willing to step away from concentrating on the learning event as the end-all, be-all right.
00:11:28.764 --> 00:11:38.206
And so I worked on a project over a course of a year, a couple years, and it's being rolled out now.
00:11:38.206 --> 00:11:40.230
It was a 64-hour curriculum.
00:11:40.230 --> 00:11:43.201
So here's a higher ed example for you.
00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:49.784
And it was for supported employment and I'm going to tell you I had the best subject matter experts anybody could ever wish for.
00:11:49.784 --> 00:11:59.629
One of them I actually actually is an instructional designer now herself, which is really super cool and she's doing an amazing job.
00:11:59.629 --> 00:12:08.575
You know, we were able to really step back and focus in this curriculum what needs to be done on the job, and I mean it is very hands on.
00:12:08.575 --> 00:12:13.878
It's not all theory, it's not all lower levels of Bloom's knowledge base.
00:12:13.878 --> 00:12:33.636
I mean there is a lot of demonstration, a lot of higher level thinking for this curriculum, and it's because the organization was dedicated to that and we were able to track the data to show measurable results, and that, to me, is successful, along with just, you know, having a dream team of subject matter experts.
00:13:12.091 --> 00:13:13.312
Right, that's amazing.
00:13:13.312 --> 00:13:17.718
I love that because that fed into my next question about that, the example.
00:13:17.718 --> 00:13:18.538
So that's perfect.
00:13:18.538 --> 00:13:21.021
That you mentioned that, that's great.
00:13:21.021 --> 00:13:23.905
What model did you end up moving to?
00:13:23.905 --> 00:13:24.666
Did you use 4CID?
00:13:27.072 --> 00:13:27.533
You know what?
00:13:27.533 --> 00:13:28.514
It's funny, Jackie.
00:13:28.514 --> 00:13:31.298
There's an author out there and I can't remember her name.
00:13:31.298 --> 00:13:34.163
She talks about instructional design being a messy process.
00:13:34.163 --> 00:13:34.485
It is.
00:13:34.930 --> 00:13:35.210
It is.
00:13:35.210 --> 00:13:36.412
Yeah, it's never neat.
00:13:37.893 --> 00:13:45.441
No matter how organized your project management tools I've used, of all models I've used, you've got to use what works for the time it is.
00:13:45.441 --> 00:13:50.225
It's dark and I used kind of a combination of Addie and Sam.
00:13:50.225 --> 00:14:03.051
So you know, you come in with the idea of failing fast, right, which I love about Sam is that you know you have the iterations and you get to really work out the kinks and everything like that.
00:14:03.051 --> 00:14:07.370
But you know, quite frankly, there's elements that overlap with with Addie as well.
00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:11.177
So I kind of do Frankenstein of Sam and Addie.
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:16.171
Yeah, exactly, I don't know, I like that yeah exactly, I don't know.
00:14:16.191 --> 00:14:16.792
I like that Smatty.
00:14:16.792 --> 00:14:18.153
Yeah, it seems to work.
00:14:18.153 --> 00:14:23.235
I mean, I'm about results, right, and I will take the tools.
00:14:23.235 --> 00:14:29.401
I mean the performance, the Kathy Moore love her action mapping.
00:14:29.401 --> 00:14:32.604
It's fantastic and I've used elements of it, but I'm not a purist.
00:14:32.604 --> 00:14:35.706
I use what I need you know for the time.
00:14:35.706 --> 00:14:51.009
And again, we cobble together the tools and the theories that are going to work to get you the learner centered training, learning event intervention, coaching, whatever it may be you just have to walk away from being dogmatic.
00:14:51.211 --> 00:14:57.357
And I think a lot of new people coming into and I think you'll probably notice this to Jackie with your students you know they come out.
00:14:57.357 --> 00:14:58.442
You know, oh well, this is.
00:14:58.442 --> 00:15:13.495
You know this is how it's supposed to be and you know the theory and they start practicing this stuff and you know it really calls on being flexible and willing to maybe take pieces and parts from the different theories and models to get you where you need to go.
00:15:13.495 --> 00:15:16.983
So that's what I tell newer people to this, to this profession.
00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:21.461
I love that, yeah, because I used to be that type that wanted things done a certain way.
00:15:21.461 --> 00:15:23.614
I was a perfectionist in many ways, something.
00:15:23.614 --> 00:15:33.432
Some ways I might be, but one person you know and this is through the SAM model and even rapid development they said, right, right, it's okay to have messy or dirty designs.
00:15:33.432 --> 00:15:45.471
I like the dirty design and I thought, you know, that's really good, because when you hand something over as an initial prototype, it's not going to be flushed out, it's not going to be all worked out, it's going to be messy and dirty.
00:15:45.471 --> 00:15:47.796
So I like, I like just to think of that.
00:15:47.796 --> 00:16:01.705
Okay, yeah, that's a work in progress and it's a silical, you know constant, you know back and forth between the subject matter, experts and really working and refining it yeah, so I love that I'm learning still to this day.
00:16:01.805 --> 00:16:02.485
I still learn.
00:16:02.485 --> 00:16:11.954
You know I I make mistakes and you know missteps too, and I just try to try to work, you know, as quickly as I can to to recover from them.
00:16:11.954 --> 00:16:20.593
But you know, is it's you got to have a high tolerance for messy to be in this realm.
00:16:20.613 --> 00:16:24.521
That's so true, absolutely, and I, you know I did.
00:16:24.521 --> 00:16:26.064
I learned, I'm learning still too.
00:16:26.064 --> 00:16:33.574
You know, like we were talking about, you've been in this industry longer than I have and I feel like I'm like 15 years, Wow.
00:16:33.574 --> 00:16:40.536
But it's like we said before, it tells our age a little bit if we say how long we've been in it, but I don't mind either.
00:16:40.536 --> 00:16:47.482
You know giving my age away, but it's interesting because I feel like I learn from my students just as much as they learn from me.
00:16:47.482 --> 00:16:51.655
So, absolutely, give and take, yeah, so that's what I love about it.
00:16:51.955 --> 00:16:56.860
Yeah, and I think the more you know I'm in this, this profession, the more I realized that I don't know.
00:16:56.860 --> 00:17:03.634
And and I'm not saying that I you know, because I've been in this profession for 27 years, that I know everything.
00:17:03.634 --> 00:17:13.297
I just you know I I like to try to help people avoid the bumps, but I learned so much more from the new folks coming in, I mean as far as the tech's concerned and.
00:17:13.336 --> 00:17:20.166
I know AI has been working with that and learning how to use prompt engineering properly to help support in a instructional design.
00:17:20.166 --> 00:17:24.478
And you know, of course, you know anything around the W.
00:17:24.478 --> 00:17:26.120
What is it?
00:17:26.120 --> 00:17:28.064
Cag, yes.
00:17:28.064 --> 00:17:42.158
Accessibility, digital accessibility, all those things too, because you know, keeping up with all this can be really daunting, right, and especially when you're busy working on projects, right.
00:17:42.158 --> 00:17:57.138
And so you got to be open to learning from the new folks coming into this area, because we're all pretty much new when it comes to AI and and and I know with you know, even with digital accessibility it can be challenging for folks too.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.121
Absolutely Right.
00:17:59.121 --> 00:18:00.704
Great, I love that.
00:18:00.704 --> 00:18:04.980
So what are some of the key strategies or lessons you found most effective in your work?
00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:11.120
You've talked a little bit about that, and how do you think others can apply those insights to some of their own projects that they're working on?
00:18:11.721 --> 00:18:13.070
Sure, Absolutely, sure, absolutely.
00:18:13.070 --> 00:18:26.420
Well, you know I already mentioned that flexibility and creating a plan on how you're going to influence the clients or whoever you're working with to focus on performance.
00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:28.923
Ultimately, you know and have some tools.
00:18:28.923 --> 00:18:30.644
I know there's a lot of templates out there.
00:18:30.644 --> 00:18:32.705
I know I have some templates for intake.
00:18:32.705 --> 00:18:37.528
I know Kathy Moore provides in her book Map it right.
00:18:37.528 --> 00:18:45.370
The action mapping has some wonderful tools for interviewing and getting people to the performance and focusing on that.
00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:48.759
So I know that there's some really good techniques.
00:18:49.299 --> 00:18:51.752
You know, every project is so different, jackie.
00:18:51.752 --> 00:18:54.663
I mean I'm telling you there are some things I and I was, as I was preparing for this and thinking about how I could articulate this.
00:18:54.663 --> 00:19:06.641
There are some things I and I was, as I was preparing for this and thinking about how I could articulate this is that I almost take a different approach just depending on the organization, the domains that we are focusing on and the subject matter.
00:19:06.641 --> 00:19:11.660
Experts, I mean, you know, really getting to know them, getting to know their work styles.
00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:17.531
You know what they like to do, what they don't like to do, and I try not to force them into something.
00:19:17.531 --> 00:19:18.674
So I'll give you an example.
00:19:18.714 --> 00:19:29.959
So, like getting feedback on, let's just say I'm going to use a presentation, because oftentimes people regardless I know Kathy Morse's don't talk about slides, don't talk about learning outcomes.
00:19:30.401 --> 00:19:43.930
The reality is a lot of your subject matter experts are very visual, right, and as long as you explain to them that this PowerPoint is not the end, all be all, this is a concept, right, and so I let them decide.
00:19:43.930 --> 00:20:05.788
Is it easier for you to comment in the PowerPoint or is it easier for you to put it in a spreadsheet and we kind of work out the logistics so I can get what I need from them, so that we can get to the final product, and so I let them kind of help me with that and I just allow myself some flexibility to just step back and say, hey, you know what this is going to work for them.
00:20:05.788 --> 00:20:10.644
As long as I get the information I need to help support them in this process and get to the end goal, then I'm fine with it.
00:20:10.644 --> 00:20:23.533
So again, I can't say it enough flexibility, flexibility, flexibility and really building up your toolkit, looking at different types of resources.
00:20:23.553 --> 00:20:24.798
That are out there, I mean anything Tim Slade's fantastic.
00:20:24.818 --> 00:20:29.192
I mean anything around Tim Slade, kara, north, of course Tracy King, you know I stand for Tracy King.
00:20:29.773 --> 00:20:35.990
And you know, and Dana Gaines Robinson still has some really great work, and Dana Gaines Robinson still has some really great work.
00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:39.654
You know Brookfield, so I tap into a lot of different.
00:20:39.654 --> 00:20:41.476
You know experts in this area.
00:20:41.476 --> 00:20:45.880
Absolutely For additional ideas, and I know there's new ones that are coming out.
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:51.850
I mean, we've got people emerging left and right, right, but it is an exciting time, absolutely.
00:20:51.850 --> 00:20:59.278
I'm just curious, you know, with AI and I know this is your podcast, but I'm going to ask you a question how much that you've been using it in your classrooms.
00:21:00.169 --> 00:21:03.872
Yes, that's a great question With Grand Canyon University.
00:21:03.872 --> 00:21:09.144
They've taken the approach of not policing it but incorporating it, yeah.
00:21:09.144 --> 00:21:19.401
And so they just revised the master's program in instructional design and so they've got a couple of competencies that are AI focused Are they really great?
00:21:19.401 --> 00:21:25.178
And then they revised all of the courses that I teach, and so I'm teaching a course right now.
00:21:25.178 --> 00:21:33.060
It's called Organizational Workplace and Performance Improvement, and so it's all about OKRs and all those different things.
00:21:33.060 --> 00:21:37.919
But it's really great because they've got an assignment coming up in I think it's topic five.
00:21:37.919 --> 00:21:40.043
They've got an assignment coming up where they have to.
00:21:40.043 --> 00:21:51.530
They have some case studies and they have to utilize AI technology to kind of have that back and forth conversation with the tool and get some outputs, and it's to help them build an e-learning module.
00:21:51.530 --> 00:21:53.673
So it's really interesting and I'm like, Ooh, that is cool.
00:21:54.174 --> 00:22:00.043
And I was graded on their prompt engineering, or how they, you know, critically think through the process.
00:22:00.043 --> 00:22:02.047
Or is it just on the end result?
00:22:02.106 --> 00:22:07.972
Yeah, it's kind of on the end result, but they are supposed to give screenshots or or something like that.
00:22:07.972 --> 00:22:20.765
They can either do screenshots or do like a copy paste into a Word document of the conversation that they had with AI and some of their prompts were and things like that, and how they did that, back and forth, so it's pretty cool.
00:22:20.765 --> 00:22:27.782
It's funny, though, I have a student that sends me a message almost every day because she wants to make sure that she's doing things right.
00:22:28.270 --> 00:22:29.336
And I appreciate that.
00:22:29.449 --> 00:22:39.889
But she's very much on top of things and she asked me I didn't think of this until she asked the question and I thought, well, maybe we need to put this in the syllabus or maybe I need to put it in my future announcements.
00:22:39.889 --> 00:22:44.941
But she's like how many times do I need to have a conversation with the AI tool?
00:22:44.941 --> 00:22:46.831
How much are you expecting with that?
00:22:46.831 --> 00:22:48.797
And I said there's really no number.
00:22:48.797 --> 00:22:55.635
It's just however much you think you need to do of back and forth to where you get that result that you're looking for.
00:22:55.635 --> 00:22:58.079
That can help you inform your e-learning module.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:18.966
So I said there's no real number around it, because I've used AI in my profession as an instructional designer and I've noticed that sometimes the AI tool gets me the first draft of what I'm looking for and kind of in that realm within a few prompts, and then sometimes I have to probe it more and I'm like, no, that's not what I'm looking for.
00:23:19.194 --> 00:23:20.397
Can now, this is?
00:23:20.397 --> 00:23:23.125
You know better experts.
00:23:23.125 --> 00:23:24.408
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:24.408 --> 00:23:27.555
Yeah, it's kind of that virtual assistant.
00:23:27.555 --> 00:23:31.302
Or I'm like, no, you're not quite there, can you adjust this a little bit?
00:23:31.302 --> 00:23:46.744
Or yeah, because I noticed that the AI tools they love bullets and lists and so unfortunately, our system doesn't allow multi-level lists, so we're trying to figure out how can we train the AI model, our internal AI model.
00:23:46.764 --> 00:23:52.447
Yeah, not to do that it's really interesting, yeah and right.
00:23:52.909 --> 00:23:55.738
And speaking of mistakes, I mean I've made mistakes with AI too.
00:23:55.738 --> 00:23:57.403
I mean I've had things hallucinate.
00:23:57.403 --> 00:23:59.736
I've had to really check very closely.
00:23:59.736 --> 00:24:19.869
Yeah, one area that I really I'm looking forward to seeing more development for those of us in this profession and structural designers, anybody who's involved with developing, learning, that type of thing, you know, really getting comfortable with utilizing the technology in the way it should be.
00:24:19.869 --> 00:24:22.463
And I don't want to lose sight of critical thinking.
00:24:22.463 --> 00:24:24.182
I'm always concerned about that too.
00:24:24.182 --> 00:24:30.615
You know, just like anything else, our critical thinking is a muscle.
00:24:30.615 --> 00:24:31.051
We need to keep exercising it.
00:24:31.051 --> 00:24:31.134
Our critical thinking is a muscle.
00:24:31.134 --> 00:24:33.215
We need to keep exercising it.
00:24:33.215 --> 00:24:49.811
And I get concerned that over-reliance on that particular tool can cause us atrophy, right, so you know, I'm encouraged when I hear people like you that you're really, you know, fostering that critical thinking piece.
00:24:50.512 --> 00:24:51.294
Right exactly.
00:24:51.355 --> 00:24:53.001
Well for your students, Exactly.
00:24:53.574 --> 00:24:54.429
Right, exactly, Well for your students, Right?
00:24:54.429 --> 00:25:00.797
Yeah, Because I I utilize it a little bit to gather ideas for the podcast, like my with my solo episodes, and I was.
00:25:00.797 --> 00:25:06.736
I did this whole series on different models and theories and I was asking it to give me some ideas on.
00:25:06.736 --> 00:25:32.120
I did one on Mayer's 12 multimedia principles and then I did one on Merrill's first principles of instruction and they were were pretty close to each other and I was just kind of doing the outlines and it was funny because ChatGPT actually got them mixed up and so it started taking Merrill's and it put it in with Mayer's and I'm like wait a minute, there aren't five multimedia principles, there's 12.
00:25:32.882 --> 00:25:34.125
I know that happened.
00:25:34.125 --> 00:25:47.838
I did see that happen one time when I was looking because I was doing something around pulling together some information about different adult learning models, and that actually did happen through chat, gpt, so we had to be on that, I know.
00:25:47.838 --> 00:25:51.563
Yeah, that's crazy nuts, yeahuts, wow.
00:25:51.563 --> 00:25:53.226
You know, the technology is there.
00:25:53.226 --> 00:26:02.759
We just have to be wise to use our critical thinking skills and our ability to curate what's coming out, because garbage in, garbage out, as they say.
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.221
Right, absolutely.
00:26:05.082 --> 00:26:05.943
Right, right.
