How to Design Digital Training That Changes Behavior With Erick Prospero

Welcome & Guest Introduction

Jackie Pelegrin 0:00

Hello, and welcome to the Designing with Love Podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 148 of the Designing with Love Podcast. I'm thrilled to have Eric Prospero with me today. Eric is an e-learning strategist and CEO of Ninja Tropic, a company focused on helping organizations modernize training through engaging digital learning experiences. His work combines instructional design, storytelling, gamification, and AI-powered learning strategies and content monetization to help teams drive true business outcomes through online education. So I'm excited to talk with Eric. Welcome to the show, Eric.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Jackie, thanks so much for having me on the call.

Jackie Pelegrin 0:54

Yes, thank you so much. I'm glad we got to connect and really share our passions together and get to learn more about you and what you

From Supply Chain To Learning

Jackie Pelegrin 1:02

do. So to start off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what led you into the world of e-learning strategy and digital learning design?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

You know, I I wish I could say when I was a kid, this is all I wanted to do, right? I don't think that's a reality for most instructional designers. I am an actual an accidental instructional designer by trade. I started my career roughly 15 years ago when I started working for the Institute for Supply Management, which is a trade association specifically for supply chain management. That was actually my background. What I studied was supply chain computer information systems, and I had a passion for producing results efficiently. So that that's what got me excited. But somehow at this association, they put me in charge of the learning department. That's when I started looking into formal training to start actually formalizing some of my understanding of traditional models and not only that, development as well. Uh the reason why they chose me was because I had a vision aligned with the VPs at the time. And she was a very ambitious lady. Uh again, she's a huge part of why I got into this industry, mostly because I was scared of her. But she wanted to produce content that was competitive in terms of aesthetics, user experience, and general output quality to these venture-backed firms. And these institutions had a lot of money, right? They they did very well as organizations. They uh were very successful in their space, and there were private entities with a lot of money and capital. And we had this small association here in Arizona and didn't have a lot of money, right? I I had a team of two people, and only one of them was actually fully dedicated to the uh to the team. So she got me to convince she was she she got me to agree on this wonderful vision of video-based learning and interactive content built on this limited budget. And I was scared, so I said, Yeah, sure, we can do it. And uh then I started looking into what this actually costs, right? I I called a few local US-based agencies and they just laughed at our budget, right? They just you can hear when you're like, oh man, I'm talking to the wrong person. Because they they were telling me based off the questions I was asking, like, hey, dude, you're not gonna be able to afford us. Like this is just not a feasible option. So, okay, so I had my team in-house. Then I realized, okay, I'm gonna have to put together some freelancers to to pull this off. Uh it was working somewhat, right? We had a decent amount of output, but there still wasn't the level of design quality we were going for, right? We wanted dynamic, engaging content. And so that's when I realized, look, I need to pair our US team with a team abroad. And I wasn't excited about that approach, but you know, it was like a last step. And I was nervous because, you know, I worked in sourcing before and I was like, you know what, maybe I can find maybe a team out of India that could support us because we just have too much content. There was hundreds of literally hundreds of hours of content that had to be converted. And I uh I was kind of committed to a certain aesthetic or production value. And so India, we reached out to contractors, India didn't work. The Philippines, it was just frustrating. And I was reading this book called The Four-Hour Work Week. Then it was talking about outsourcing firms in Latin America. And I thought, oh, you know what, maybe that works. I speak a little bit of Spanish. And this is where I found this company that allowed me to hire people full-time as opposed to hiring them for the project. So I basically had a remote animator, and this person was far better at design than I am, and he was an incredibly talented artist. He spoke English, French, and Spanish. Uh, better he he writes it better than I do. Um, I'm not sure if you've seen my writing, but uh it's horrible. Uh and uh I partnered with him and a few other designers, and we were able to create this system to produce phenomenal content. And again, it was still our team in-house, but now we have this extra capacity for incredible design elements. And that's really how Ninja Tropics started. I just realized, you know what, there's this really cool hybrid model of our US-based instructional designers, art direction, and leadership here, powered by this phenomenal design team. And then eventually Carlos and I started our own business because I was like, you know what, this was really cool. I uh I really want to do this for other people. Not only that, I I really w loved the fact the the portion of the job that involved building a product that was selling to an audience. So as an entrepreneur by trade, that's what also got me excited was the fact that, you know, I we're not just leaning into instructional design theory from the 90s, right? We're building something that's going to drive the association's revenue in the future, that's going to change the industry by far. And it gave me like a sense of fulfillment by doing that.

Jackie Pelegrin 6:23

That's wonderful. So you're you were able to create something that would carry on, right? And give you legacy and be sustainable. And so I really love that. You saw a need and you and you you filled that gap. So that's great. I love that. And it all started from the accidental instructional design. Yes. That's how it started with me too. I didn't realize um it was something I wanted to do until something came along and I was like, oh, what's this? A master's in instructional design? What is this about? I didn't had no idea. I was like, what does that mean? So yeah, it's really exciting when you have that epiphany moment, right? When you know that's this is what you're meant to do. So I love that, Eric. Thank you for sharing that. Appreciate it. Yes. So a lot of organizations want their training to feel more modern. We talked about this offline, but sometimes that just means adding more video, animation, or interactivity.

Building Quality Training On A Budget

Jackie Pelegrin 7:18

From your perspective, Eric, what separates a truly engaging digital learning experience from one that only looks engaging on the surface?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

That's a really good question. And I love it because I'll be honest, we have a bias towards making things look engaging and cool. However, beyond the aesthetic and the bells and whistles, engagement really matters when it drives a purpose. It solves a legitimate problem for the organization and the end learner. So when you're teaching content, it's always essential to do a few things. The first one is tie it to an actual business problem that matters for the organization, tie it to metrics that have to be measured against the performance based off that. And lastly, write this problem in a way that resonates with the learner, right? Describe it to them, create a conflict scenario where they understand look, my understanding or my ability to execute this task is tied to this performance of the organization, which is paying me money. And I think that's a big factor because it's easy to, believe it or not, it's easy to make anything into a really cool video, especially now in this world of AI.

Jackie Pelegrin 8:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

And there's so many tools for us to generate these fantastic courses. Well, I mean, for the most part, I think people are still figuring it out. But I I think the real conversation happens at the beginning of the project, right? Like, what are we creating this course for? Right. What's the business metric for China trying to actually shift behind this? And then lastly, uh, what does behavior look like after we create this course? And how does a course allow you the to actually practice in terms of content? Uh so those are the big factors, right? Because again, it's easy to design something that looks fancy. It's easy to add video. Um and now I would even say it's easy to add like gamified elements that are more than just drag and drop activities. But it just comes down to like if this is legitimate practice for what you're trying to achieve.

Jackie Pelegrin 9:24

Right, exactly. Because you don't want things that are just what I call eye candy, where it looks pretty, it's shiny, but it doesn't achieve anything, like you said. There's no metrics behind it or anything like that, right? So that's really important. Um, I just recorded for you know some of my episodes about that. So it's really interesting that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

I know it has uh a negative context. So again, I'm I'm I'm all for creating courses that drive legitimate behavior change, but uh I do want to defend iCandy. And I know I uh from being the devil's advocate here. Right. Uh when you're building content, uh for example, I I work with a ton of associations. Uh, it's where I started. We it's about 30% of our customer base because we work with a lot of different industries. But it's like my background and passion, right? And I just love helping these smaller organizations build products that sell, especially products that help people advance in their careers. It just drives me in the morning. But the reality is I really do think these organizations need some eye candy because they approach uh they have these wonderful missions, they have an incredible base of talent. And the the way their organizations are run are really cool because they're the it's like smaller family businesses that legitimately care about a certain industry and whatever industry you would imagine, right? Everything from plumbing to nursing to et cetera. Uh, but when it comes to perception, that is a big deal. And when you're producing a product, and if the course feels like a click next PowerPoint, right, and the only way to engage the audience is to time it so they have to click next every 60 seconds. I hate to say it, but like, yeah, maybe that's effective, so it's forcing them to listen. But sometimes having a dynamic animation on boring content makes a difference, right? Or including story structure paired with very detailed visuals. And the reason why, too, is because perception matters. If you're building a course and it looks outdated, right? It looks like it was designed by somebody, I don't know, from 15 years ago, and you're selling that as a product, what does that say about your brand? And I and I'm not just trying to sell eye candy because we sell eye candy. Like we we do a lot more tied to behavior analysis during our training needs study. The big challenge though is you're building a product that's a per a reflection of your brand and perception and optics matter. And I know I'm talking about associations that have an external audience where they're selling content, but technically that logic applies to internal training. So if Coca-Cola, they're developing, let's just say, safety training for their warehouse employees. If that content looks like it's a slide deck that you basically click next on with AI voiceover, it's basically communicating that, hey, you know what? We didn't really have a lot of time to put an effort into this. And I know you're used to watching videos and having these dynamic experiences everywhere else in the world, but you kind of have to just muscle through this because we did too. Like that's what you're telling your audience. So that the the same reasons why iCandy matters for that external audience, it matters for an internal audience. And before I I would uh I would be less soapboxy on this. Like I would, because I I agree with you, right? Like fundamentals matter, right? Creating legitimate practice with e-learning is a priority. Right. But now with that, now that we have AI, like eye candy is possible, right? Like we we have this capacity to build eye candy and legitimate practice. And I and I think especially for associations, it matters because I think AI has the ability to support the little guy more than anybody, right? For when and associations are the little guy, right? They're they're they're smaller groups, they don't make a lot of money. Uh I mean, then there's there's a range of association sizes, but they have this ability to lean into this tech and legitimately pair that with their industry knowledge to create something wonderful. They just have to like lean into it and do it. And so I'm uh I'm excited because a lot of them are out there, right? We work with a lot of them that we're we're starting to do very well because of this. So I I know that was uh a weird tangent on iCandy, but I just That's okay. Now that now that now that the tech's out there, right? We can have our eye candy, right? We can but we and we can also have a lot of other stuff too, but uh we don't have to have boring courses anymore, right?

Jackie Pelegrin 14:17

That's true. Yeah, and it and I think it's also uh something uh in curriculum development too. We're noticing in higher education where

What Real Engagement Looks Like

Jackie Pelegrin 14:25

we have our media design team where we're going to them more often and we're saying, how can we make this more engaging so that it's not just a bunch of written content and courses? So we're trying to make it uh yeah, to to where it's engaging, where we have AI personas now where they can the AI persona acts like the client, and then the student are is acting like the the counselor, for example, and they do it in a safe environment before they even get to real clients. So it's really exciting to see all this different type of uh pla you know places that it's showing up and and able to be meaningful for them too. So giving them that practice that you talked about, that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

And it matters too. I know uh even since you work at a university, this is a big deal because I mean it's essentially a reflection of the university's brand, right? So if it's easier to get away with boring content with students, right? I mean, they have to, they're there for a grade. And but I it's just a bit different for corporate training. So I'm really glad that you guys are leaning into the innovative side because it's I I think too often the industry has just they've become complacent to say, oh, they have to take this training, right? They they have to do this or they they need this for CEHs. So let's just it's the best we can do. And now the best we can do, uh I I I I want to challenge that statement because everyone is capable of doing a lot more now.

Jackie Pelegrin 15:57

Right, exactly. We can break that glass ceiling now. We could do so much more, yes. So it's challenging us to to see what we can do to make things more innovative and yeah, and more realistic for the learners as well. So I love that. And as you talk about with that brand, I mean, that's so important to to be able to understand what who they're serving, right? Who who is this organization serving or who is this uh association serving, right? And be able to understand that. Do you find, Eric, that you um that your designers or those on your team that they create those personas that that's really helpful for them as they're designing their training? Um, because then they get to really see who they're designing for and what they're designing for as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

That's one of the first steps in our process. Usually we spend a lot of time going through their business goals. And you would think a lot of organizations, when they reach out, they have established metrics, right? Either whether if it's an association or an enterprise for internal training, sometimes they just know they need training. And uh we have to do a lot of probing on, okay, great, who are the learners and what is your actual business problem? And what what do you need them to perform to solve this business problem, right? And how are we gonna measure if this is actually effective? And uh it it it's always an uncomfortable question because then you you put them on the spot, they realize, like, oh, we don't know, right? We don't we don't measure we don't measure this now. And I I I uh it's tricky because sometimes, and I get it, that a business unit, they're not gonna have the time and capacity to measure everything, right? They have a legitimate job to be doing in the business, and they're not gonna be able to actually pull out the yardstick and track a lot of these details. But it's they're always important to ask, and it's always important to tie the we what we call lag metrics to lead metrics, right? So lag metrics are essentially the end result that you want. Lead metrics are what uh it's usually tied to some sort of behavior activity. So if uh sales, like let's just look at a sales team. We're developing sales training. The lag metric there ultimately is sales, right? It's the result that we want. We want to boost sales for the sales stream. Uh the lead metric would be a behavior that they're doing. So maybe they are following up with a certain um story element that they were trained on, right? That's the lead metric. And so we we contract the lag metric, but then we always try to tie it to the behavior of the lead metric.

Jackie Pelegrin 18:42

That makes sense. Yeah, that's great. I love that. And I love how it's done at the very beginning of the process. So that's your your needs analysis where you're really trying to dig in and see what is it that we're trying to solve, right? And what are we what are we trying to help you do in that process? Yeah. And it I agree with you. It is difficult sometimes because stakeholders, subject matter experts, all of those individuals that are in that process, yeah, it's true. They may not know exactly what needs to happen or what the you know end result needs to be. So that's where we come along and we help them with that. Because sometimes they just want to throw, I I get this a lot. They just want to throw everything at the learner. Like, let's just throw it all, see what sticks. And I'm like, okay, let's let's peel back the layers a little bit. So I try to peel back the onion

When Visual Polish Actually Matters

Jackie Pelegrin 19:29

and see and get the to the core of that. So I think that's what makes our work so so great and so engaging. So I enjoyed that part of it. That's really great. Wonderful. So, Eric, your work brings together instructional design, storytelling, and gamification, which those are elements that I love, especially the storytelling aspect. How do you decide when those creative elements genuinely support learning and behavior change rather than becoming just decoration?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

That's a great question. And it's kind of tricky because again, I I don't want to get into the conversation as to why decoration matters. Because it does, especially when you have external learners and decoration matters when you care about your brand, right? Because is a suit necessary? Probably not. But you want to communicate a certain message with how something looks. But uh beyond that, I uh in terms of how we do it, we have a very defined tactical process. And it's not always uh I mean, I I don't have the most creative answer, but with every client, we start with an extensive training needs analysis. And typically these clients, they're trying to change some a certain type of performance or build a certain type of competence with competency in terms of behavior. They have a financial metric they're trying to achieve. Some of them are trying to monetize content. And lastly, a lot of our clients are trying to deliver a certain type of brand experience. So once we understand their business goals in that context, we'll run through the next part of the training needs analysis where we break down, okay, great, what are the specific learning outcomes that we want to see, the behaviors that we're trying to shift? We have a document called an instructional alignment chart, which is essentially the curriculum outline for the course. And this is where we start to map out where we want to create some form of passive learning activity, right? For knowledge-based act, like where are we trying to pass on knowledge and where are we trying to pass on legitimate practice? And then lastly, where do we want to see a shift in performance? So with our instructional alignment chart, it's we we essentially break down a curriculum and assign it with an active learning activity or an instruction an assessment activity or some form of passive learning. And I typically that's where we'll start to decide okay, great, what form Of gamified element is actually gonna move the needle in terms of performance. What what type of story structure here would sell the why of this course? So it all happens in the instructional alignment chart process.

Jackie Pelegrin 22:13

Hmm, that's great. And do you find that branching scenarios really help? Does that help the learner when they get to choose like a path? So you start them off with a story and then you kind of let them choose that path, or do you find that a defined path is better for them in these types of when you when you're working with these clients?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I love the idea of a branching scenario. The big fear I have is they're just difficult to execute well, right? Because uh usually when you're thinking branching scenarios, there's just layers of storyline activities. And it's still a very direct and non, it's it's still a linear approach, right? Now maybe you had a very complex branching scenario planned and it's useful. Uh so I'm I do like branching scenarios when they're executed well and they're actually intentional with practice. So if you're creating if if you're creating a branching scenario of that is a very good simulation of practice of like what you're trying to do. But if honestly, if it's a branching scenario and then you're still telling people and if it's still a knowledge-based course, you're better off just creating a short form of that, right? Creating some form of a summarized content. So I uh again love branching scenarios, but they have to be executed well and be tied to that practice. But with that being said, there's just a world of opportunity with vibe coding right now. And we're just getting started. So I uh I mean before uh what one of the things we recently built was this application that allows you to practice your customer service skills. So if you were to build a branching scenario, you would it would be built off some form of a multiple choice answer and you would go down this path and it wouldn't be fun, right? You would just be clicking, you'd be answering based off of the response and you'd be going back and forth. But now with this chatbot we created, like you're you're dealing with an angry customer who missed their flight. And whatever you say, they're gonna have a fresh answer for you and they're gonna talk to you like you're stupid because that's what happens sometimes at customer service.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

It's just really weird how effective this tool is.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:15

It is, it's amazing. Yeah, like those uh virtual interactive interactive personas that we have. That sounds very similar to that, where I was testing out the the part where I'm the counselor and then the VI, the persona, the AI persona is the the client. And I was just uh, you know, we were testing it out to see because we our media team will actually build in like what are the limitations? What can this, what should this AI persona not do? What should they do, right? So we have to build those guardrails around it. And um, and I was like, wow, this one's pretty um, I don't know, just he seemed like like he didn't want, you know, didn't want to be there in the counseling office. And I'm I'm trying to play the counselor, and I'm just like, so what brings you in the office today? He's like, I just don't want to be here. And I'm like, wow, this sounds pretty realistic though. When I asked the the uh faculty, I was like, does this happen a lot in counseling at sessions? And they're like, oh yes, a lot. So I'm like, okay, so this is realistic. This is what they're gonna face in practice. So it's really good when you can build those that are realistic and timely for what they're facing in the workplace, right? So that's great.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

And what's cool about this too is my my assumption is because you you work for a larger or larger organization, you probably signed up for a subscription for a major platform that allows you to build these avatars, right? Do you know which one?

Jackie Pelegrin 26:37

Um I'm not sure what the media team uses, but I know that they do use some type of platform to build them out. And then they they run them by us. We do QA and and all of that, test them out. So I'll have to find out which one it is, but I know they do use use a platform for that. Yeah, we'll have to find out which one it is.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

We uh we vibe coded one in two days. Oh wow. Yeah, I mean, like I mean, uh it's not necessarily a character you're talking to. You just you're talking to just like a voice. But I mean, like the voice sounds authentic, it sounds real. And I'll I'll be honest, I've seen some of the character ones, they look corny, and the the the real thing is a legitimate practice on the voice part. So yeah, which is it's just fun because now in terms of creating legitimate practice or these legitimate scenarios, there's just so much more capacity, right? The rules are changing. We're no longer we shouldn't be limited to these storyline. And by the way, you we use storyline and articulate all of you guys, it's a great product, but I I I understand that you guys are gonna have to evolve with this trend because the expectations are changing, right? Right. Hey, we can we can create legitimate scenarios with complex variables, and you don't necessarily need to be a developer to do it.

Jackie Pelegrin 27:57

That's so true. Yes. So let's dig a little bit more into that, Eric, with the AI, because this is exciting. Um, and and I know some some designers that I talk with are they're just not sure where to where to go with it. You know, they they want to be able to learn the tools, right? But they don't want to feel like they have to know all the tools. And so being able to kind of go through that. So, where do you see AI creating the more the most value in e-learning right now? And what parts of the design process still need that strong human judgment, in your opinion, with that?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

That's a good question. And I'm trying to think of a non-kliche answer. But I um I mean,

Needs Analysis & Metrics That Matter

SPEAKER_01 28:42

it ultimately depends on the capacity issues you have. And I I I hate to phrase it that way, but everyone has a capacity problem. I I heard this, I heard this exact question from an association learning manager where she was saying that, you know what, I we have we're just frustrated because we don't know where to start. It just seems overwhelming, and it is like even if you just focus on one technology, for example, Google Vio, like just Google products, they are evolving constantly. We we can't even build training on it because three months from now, it's going to be a different platform with twice as much capability, like it's gonna get better, faster.

Jackie Pelegrin 29:25

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I I completely understand and empathize why it might be intimidating. Uh, so my question and challenge for you is okay, where do you need extra capacity? Right? Like, where are you behind? And then just talk to Claude about the best solutions for that specific activity. Because you don't have to know everything about everything. Now, I I do think in this world of this rapidly growing world of AI, you do have to know a little bit about everything, right? You you have to know enough to understand that, okay, what's the difference between something that's useful for generating media versus something that's useful for analyzing data, right? Uh what's a Gentec AI, what are the capabilities there versus what's your typical standard LLM look like? And honestly, I think that's just an eight-hour course. Just watch a series of YouTube videos. You can you can develop an initial competency where you know a little bit about everything. But the people who are going to be winning are going to be the ones that know a little bit about everything and then a lot about a little. So once you figure out where you need your capacity and you identify your tool stack, okay, great. You know what? As an instructional designer, I need to know Claude, I need to know the AI version of Storyline, and maybe I'm gonna lean into Google Vio and then just master those. So when you know a lot about that tool stack, that's because then you're gonna start to realize, you know what, I can create really cool gamified, advanced learning experiences that have video, that solve legitimate business problems, and I could do it faster and better. And I don't need to know everything, right? I just need to know this specific tool stack. But it is gonna be hard because stuff's changing and it's getting better. And I I I I don't want that to be the reason why you're left behind. Because it's one thing if it was just changing like in a light way, and maybe there are small cell changes, right? Buttons are moving, but it's legitimately getting better. Like the capacity, the potential, the output is getting stronger. And it's just if you're not using it, you're gonna be competing with instructional designers that are producing content that's more focused, more personalized, that looks amazing, and you're gonna be left behind.

Jackie Pelegrin 31:51

I uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

I uh I know that's I don't mean to scare people, but uh I think it's important to mention that there's there's there's a meteor hitting the earth right now. And again, I don't think this AI tech is going to replace everyone. Uh it's the people who are using it that are.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:11

Right, exactly. I because I always like to think of AI as my collaborative partner, not something that's going to eventually replace me, but something that's making my work, like you said, it's making what I do faster, better, right? Um, more personalized. And and so I think it's also good for those that I teach and everything to be able to let them know, you know, you can make a better portfolio with all of this. You can have really good artifacts that are going to draw employers in because that's your that's your marketing tool. Use it to your advantage. I always tell my students that like don't just stick stuff in there and then just leave it. Let that portfolio be your living uh selling point, right? Your marketing tool ongoing, right? And just let it let it sell, you know, what you're what you're trying to build and what you're trying to grow. So yeah, that's amazing. I love that. Wow. I yeah, it's amazing, Eric, isn't it? How all these tools are just it's like in the blink of an eye, you're like, oh, it's it's different. And it keeps growing and changing.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

It's yes, it's scary. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. And use that, use that fear, like harness that dark side. And I'll be honest, I uh we are scared. I mean, like, I I know I'm I'm

Storytelling & Gamification With Intent

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I'm I'm challenging the audience to just choose a few tools and learn a lot about them. But if anything, do it out of fear because the technology is only getting better. The world we're living in is very different from what our parents grew up in, right? Well from what we from what we experienced 10 years ago.

Jackie Pelegrin 33:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

And uh there's just uh like you have a few options. You can kind of back into a quarter and decide not to lean into it, or or you can just choose one to two things and decide to be great at it.

Jackie Pelegrin 33:58

Right. That's so true. Because yeah, you're right. 15 years ago, I mean, I remember using Captivate 4 and how and I remember how that was because it was my first experience being an ID. And and now thinking about how these tools have changed, it's like, wow, it's just amazing how we've just leapt so far in 15 years. Doesn't feel like it, but it's it's been 15 years sometimes. I'm like, what? Really? It's been that long. So it's amazing. So that's why I think it's so good for us to continually be learning, right? And never never stop learning. It's always good to have that continuous learning and and knowledge base that we can we can draw upon. I always call it my ID toolkit. I like to keep my toolkit updated all the time because it I don't want it to become outdated and and just stale. I'm like, no, it's gotta be fresh and evergreen. And so I can continue to to do that. So that's great. Wonderful. So, Eric, for our bonus question, for subject matter experts, entrepreneurs, or organizations that want to monetize their knowledge through online courses, what's is one mistake they often make when turning that expertise into a learning product?

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Thank you for that question. And it matters because, again, my background is in association learning. I help a ton of associations build content as productized learning. And there's a big difference. So the mistakes that I've seen them make and a lot of other organizations make is starting with content. What I mean by that is they will typically have like a book of content or knowledge resource or some form of bank of information. And they think, you know what, I can sell this online. People want to know this, and I could probably if I repackage this in a way and add some bells and whistles on it, and uh, I forgot the term we use, but spice it up a bit, maybe I'll sell. And that doesn't work, right? If if you just start with that content focus, you're essentially producing content as a commodity, even if you could do it in a cool way with AI. So the biggest piece of advice that I have is start with a problem your audience has. Right? Start with the uh a problem the buyer has, actually, if anything. Because sometimes it's a bit different, right? If you're selling to an organization, they might be buying a portion of content for their employee base. Uh so you have to focus on the problem of the organization and then make it relevant to the learners that are actually consuming the content. And uh that's probably one of the biggest pieces of advice is you have to start treating your learning as not just like vitamins, right? Vitamins are good for you. And theoretically, everyone should want to learn more uh, even if it's within your like let's just say I'm I for instructional design for myself, right? I should want to learn more about instructional design because it's good for my career. So if I consume instructional design content, it's like taking vitamins. Useful, but the thing is, am I gonna pay for that? Probably not, because I can find it on YouTube, I can find it on ChatGBT, I can go to Claude, I can talk to you about it, can watch this podcast.

Jackie Pelegrin 37:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

But once you tie it to a legitimate problem, that concept of vitamins turns into Tylenol or even Vicadin, right? Like if if you have a headache tied to whichever problem you have, if your business has some form of a headache, they're going to pay a lot of money for content that solves a problem. So uh that that's the focus and the mindset you have to have is is the information that I'm producing relatable to a problem that's solvable, right? When learners consume this content, are they gonna make this organization more money, or are they gonna save them money, or they get to reduce risk? And that has to be where you start. Not necessarily, oh, I have this knowledge, I have this resource, I have this experience. Uh, you have to start with the problem your learners have.

Jackie Pelegrin 38:11

Absolutely. I love that. Great advice here. Thank you. Appreciate it. So, final question: as we look to the future of digital learning, what mindset shift do you think instructional designers, educators, and learning leaders should make to create training that truly drives outcomes?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Well, the good ones, I'm realizing, even the most tech-savvy individuals, right? The people who are truly ahead of the curve on AI and leaning into this, they are sticking with their fundamentals. Like the idea of legitimate practice and behavior change and building competency for business goals. So that's the mindset shift is focusing on what actually matters as opposed to just producing content faster, right? Uh it's it's having that core focus, not necessarily by the way,

Branching Scenarios & AI Simulations

SPEAKER_01 39:05

uh five minutes ago, I was telling everyone to learn AI tools and resources because you have to. And that's still true. You have to learn and keep up with this wave of technology that's coming up. Because if you don't, your peers are going to and they're going to replace you. Again, it's it's not AI that's going to replace you, it's the people that are using AI that are going to replace you. But with that being said, you still have to have a focus on the fundamentals in terms of creating content that solves business problems, right? Creating training that has legitimate opportunities for practice. And what's great about what's happening in the world is this exists today. We have the tools and resources to make this today.

Jackie Pelegrin 39:48

All right. So tap into it, right? And yes, and be that uh what I I like to, you know, we I did a series, I did a whole entire series called the AI Ready Designer. It's uh I've got three more episodes left in that 12-episode series. And one of them was about shifting our mindset from content creator to learning architect, uh, because having that mindset shift is so important. So we're not just sitting there creating content, but we're actually the architect of that learning and we're creating the best experience, right, for those learners and the organization as well. So yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

I would, I would uh I would challenge you to think of it as a solutions architect. Because I think uh Oh, that's good.

Jackie Pelegrin 40:35

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Yeah, uh, you're you remember, you're not we're not creating learning for the sake of learning. Like I don't I mean ultimately I don't care. I mean, I hate to say this. I I do I'm gonna say this, but I'm gonna backtrack a little bit. I was gonna say, I don't care what my employees learn if it's not solving my problems. But they actually do, but uh to be uh to be honest with you, I do care and I actually do challenge them to learn new things, and they they know that about me. Uh but like am I going to invest in their lizard collection? I have uh one of my favorite guys on the team, he has a collection of lizards. Probably not gonna invest in the lizard collection, right? But am I willing to invest in a vibe coding course so he becomes a tr like an expert in the field to help us create better content from our clients? Absolutely. So I would challenge you to think uh learning like I I've heard that that term before, right? Uh what was it, learning learning architect or learning solutions architect?

Jackie Pelegrin 41:30

Yeah, a combination of those. Yeah, I've heard those too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

But just think solutions architect, right? Because we're here to solve a business problem. And I I think that's a mindset that has to happen as opposed to anything tied to content.

Jackie Pelegrin 41:44

Right. I like that. Solutions architect. I like that better. That's really good. Yeah. See, we're we're our iron sharpens iron, right? So there you go. So we're helping each other to sharpen ourselves, sharpen our our toolkit. Absolutely. I love that. Well, Eric, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your perspective on modern e-learning, storytelling, gamification, AI, and the business side of learning design. I learned so much from you as well. So that's great. This conversation, I think, is a great reminder for me and for all the listeners that effective digital learning is not just about making content look better. It's about designing experiences that are experiences that are purposeful, engaging, measurable, and connected to real outcomes. So for anyone that wants to keep learning from you, Eric, where's the best place to connect?

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Follow me on LinkedIn. So if you look up Eric Prospero, I should pop up. And you'll see daily videos, content, you'll see where I'm speaking. And if you want more information for speaking opportunities for myself, ericprespero.com. And then we're also posting a ton of content on our YouTube channel, the Microlearning Lab. So uh the actual channel of like the subheader is called Microlearning Examples, but there we bring on experts. I would love to extend an invite to you, Jackie. I'm not sure if you've spent some time on the microlearning lab, but we have some pretty cool content on there. And uh lastly, our website, ninja tropic.com.

Jackie Pelegrin 43:11

Love it. I would that would be great. I would love to come on because I I uh microlearning is great. I've done a few episodes on my podcast about microlearning, talk to others about it. So yeah, I would love to come on and um offer some expertise on on that side of it too. That would be great. Wonderful. Well, thanks again, Eric, and I look forward to having you back on the show. You're always welcome to come back on and share some different things because as we know, we talked about earlier, things are changing like crazy. So I'm always glad to have you back on to talk about what's uh what's trending and what's changing in in our world.