Designing Learning That Actually Changes Behavior with Dr. Steven Linley

Welcome & Guest Intro

Jackie Pelegrin 0:01

Hello, and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 122 of the Designing with Love Podcast. Today I'm joined by Dr. Steven Linley, a learning and development strategist with over 20 years of experience helping organizations and educators turn learning into a driver of real performance. With a PhD in adult learning and organizational leadership, Steven designs learning systems that go beyond content delivery to create sustained behavior change, aligning how people learn with how results are achieved. He's contributed to award-winning learning organizations and supported initiatives that have increased student retention by more than 20%, which is very impressive. I love that. Focus, his work reflects a shared belief that clarity, intentional design, and human-centered systems are what term growth and transformation into something sustainable and measurable. Welcome to the show, Steven.

Dr. Steven Linley 1:09

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jackie. I appreciate it.

Jackie Pelegrin 1:12

Yes. I I love that we got connected through PodMatch. I always like to give a shout-out to PodMatch when uh when I get uh guests that come on through there. So it's a great tool. So so great that we got connected.

Speaker 3 1:25

Yeah, agreed.

Jackie Pelegrin 1:27

Wonderful. Yes. So for listeners that are meeting you for the first time, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself and the work you do in learning and development?

What Strategic L&D Really Means

Dr. Steven Linley 1:36

Sure. Um I really work with leaders and subject matter experts to use learning as a strategy for team performance, um, as opposed to a training event or just checking the box to say that we did this. I mean, think about it this way. Have you ever done one of those online lessons where you're just clicking through the pages just to get done so you can tell your boss that it's over? Or during a classroom training in like the whole time you've got your phone underneath the table. And like I do the opposite of that.

Jackie Pelegrin 2:10

Right.

Dr. Steven Linley 2:11

Try to build training that connects with people, builds on their own motivation, and then work that into uh work processes.

Jackie Pelegrin 2:19

I love that. You want to make it memorable so that it's not just one and done, right? You want to have it be in their daily work, right? And even maybe in their personal development as well. I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 3 2:32

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 2:32

That's great. Yeah, because motivation is at the heart of it. We want it to be authentic. We want to motivate the learners because they're busy enough as it is in their everyday work. So if we can, you know, help it to be motivating and help them to see that it's part of their daily work and not just an add-on, I think that helps too.

Dr. Steven Linley 2:51

Right. Yeah. And there's a lot of research on motivation to learn and motivation to transfer. You know, like motivation to learn is like what's my mindset going into a training or a learning event? And what's what my what's my mindset in that training event about how I'm going to transfer this back to my job, regardless of what industry you're in. Um we're all humans, our brains are working the same way. So it doesn't matter what industry you're in. Uh, there's a lot of research on that that we can tap into, um, especially when it comes to the the the biology of learning and and making connections to that. And if we design to the way that individuals are learning,

Motivation to Learn & Transfer

Dr. Steven Linley 3:29

then we have a much, much better um chance of grabbing onto that motivation to learn and motivation to transfer. There's a lot of different levers there. Um training the the event itself, the the the online lesson itself, uh or what whatever you happen to be working on. That's not the only thing that's affecting performance when it when someone is is in the uh a corporate setting or a higher ed or a K through 12 setting. Um, there's a lot of different things going on that that will affect your performance, but this is one of them. And if we use learning strategically uh and we we take that and we architect it into all the other processes and the other influences that are coming coming at us while we're working, then we can use this whole package as a tool to affect behavior behavior change and to improve performance. And really the whole goal is to help people with their careers and advance their careers and have more satisfying time at work.

Jackie Pelegrin 4:29

Right. That's the end goal. I love it. Great. So, and this happens to me, this has happened to me quite a bit as an instructional designer. So, as we know, many stakeholders and they probably come to you and come to L and D asking for quote unquota training, right? I just I want a training. So, how do you identify what the real problem is before you design anything? And what does a strong needs analysis look like in practice?

Dr. Steven Linley 4:52

Right. Yeah, I get that a lot. When when I was in ID, I did that a lot, right? People, I would get leaders coming in and it's like, hey, I I did this presentation at my department meeting. Can you take my PowerPoint deck and turn it into an online lesson? Because my answer is yes, I can, but should I is a different question.

Speaker 2 5:12

Right.

Dr. Steven Linley 5:13

Let's have a conversation about this. Um, so so there's a lot of questions that that I have that I'll talk through whoever is bringing me that request before I'll actually do something about it. Um I I think about it like like I'm a I'm a huge like mystery buff. I when I was a kid, you know, when everybody else wanted to be like an astronaut or like a police officer or what have you, it's like I

Beyond Events: Systems For Performance

Dr. Steven Linley 5:43

wanted to be a private detective.

Jackie Pelegrin 5:45

I did too. I used to love reading mystery books and watching mystery movies. I still do, actually. Yeah, I'm a mystery buff too. I love it.

Dr. Steven Linley 5:53

Yeah, I read stuff like Encyclopedia Brown and the Hardy Boys.

Jackie Pelegrin 5:57

Yes, me too.

Dr. Steven Linley 6:00

I know those are great books. Nancy Drew.

Speaker 2 6:03

Nancy Drew, yeah.

Dr. Steven Linley 6:05

Huge fan of like Agatha Christie and and and uh um a lot of those um mystery books. Is obviously I still read a lot of mysteries, but finding out if it's training or not is kind of similar to that. That's why I bring it up in the first place. Is is there's a mystery going on. Someone brings me a request, it's like this is an inciting event. This is just like finding the body, or something is stolen. It's like we've got to figure out what's behind this and and who are all the players and what's going on, where the evidence, how are we gonna analyze the evidence, the data in in our particular situation? You know, what's the problem to solve? Is there red herrings? Because generally, well, not generally, like sometimes the training request itself is a red herring, it's just leading this down a path that that we shouldn't be following, right? Um there's always the big reveal, which is our design.

Jackie Pelegrin 7:00

Yes, I love it.

Dr. Steven Linley 7:04

Or Hercules Pro, as we would say in the United States. Um, but you know, it's like brings everybody into a room, then he reveals his his his big uh solve to the mystery. Uh and we do the same thing. It's like this is our design. Let's check this out. It's brilliant. Right. Yeah. Uh but put it putting it in context. Um there was a request I had once. I was working with a uh distribution company. Actually, they were they were in seven states. They had like 52 warehouses. It was like straight truck. Like they they brought in things from it was it was like plumbing, uh uh uh products that dealt with kitchen and bathrooms. Uh and they would most of their business was was getting it from the manufacturers, breaking things up, and and distributing it to work sites for construction. So as they were doing new builds and remodels. Uh and they they called me in and said, It's like we want you to do customer service training for our call center. We're getting a lot of complaints, an unusual amount of complaints. And and like, like, can I do the customer service training? Yes. Should I? Maybe not. So let's have a conversation about this. So, so I could have done it really easily and and chalked it up and and

The Mystery Method For Needs Analysis

Dr. Steven Linley 8:16

been done with it, but there's a mystery to solve here. It's like that is that actually the question. Why are we getting so many complaints in this call center? So I looked at the call data with with the the call center leader. Uh, we were looking at call logs, we were listening to recordings, we were uh doing observations, talking to the reps on the phone. Uh, we're looking at the the complaints themselves. Um, and we did a real deep dive. And what I found was that the folks in the call center were like the nightest, nicest, sweetest people that you could ever have on the phone. It wasn't a customer service problem. It's like it's like call centers are tough. It's like it's hard to be nice on the phone every day for eight hours a day and not lose your mind. Being in a call center is a hard business, and they were fantastic. Turns out, what was really going on is they didn't understand the software system well enough. So they'd get a call from a customer and they'd want to know what was going on in their order, and there was a significant amount of the calls where they'd have to say, Well, let me look into this and call you back. And that's what triggered a complaint. Yeah, because they couldn't find it fast enough.

Speaker 2 9:31

Right.

Dr. Steven Linley 9:31

So it wasn't customer service training, it was computer systems training that we needed. So we dug into the into the data, we looked at the evidence and and found we whittled it down. There was about 11 questions that covered about 80% of the calls. So we did some deep dive training on how to find things quickly to answer these. The the call time reduced. Uh, we were finding answers quicker, we weren't having to call people back. Complaints dropped like a rock. It's like it had nothing to do with customer service. It was purely about computers. So, so when they bring me the training to get back to the original question, it's it's really a series of questions to un to to unearth that mystery to figure out what's what's really underneath what problem are we solving so that we can make people's performance better and easier.

Jackie Pelegrin 10:22

I love that. Yeah, because at the back of my mind, as you were talking about that example, it reminded me of some things that have come up too, because I used to work at a call center. And oftentimes they would think it, oh, it's the reps that are causing the issue or something. And and sometimes you're right, it ends up being technology related or process related or something like that, and has nothing to do with them, right? And it's like, oh, let's yeah, let's get to the heart of what it really is and and see if we can resolve it without always slapping training on it and saying, oh, this is a training issue, and it may not always be a training issue. And that's why that needs analysis is so important, right? If we if we skip that, we're we're just um we may just put a band-aid on something and not really solve what the real core issue is of it. So yeah, I love how you how Stephen, how you brought about that mystery analogy. I really love that. I haven't heard that before, but it makes so much sense when you when you really think about it, you know, of them. And it just it reminds me of what's that um that animated show where they had all the kids and and then they would pull off the mask at the end of the of the ghost. Scooby-doo, that's it. Scooby-doo. That was like the dog. What's the dog's name? Yeah. And at the very end, they would always, you know, pull off the the mask or something, and you would they would reveal who the real you know criminal was, you know, because they exactly made me think of Scooby-Doo, yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Right. Exactly. I love that. Maybe, maybe in a in a podcast episode, uh, one of my solo ones, I should do that, like a mystery hook to it. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'll do like the uh the roadmap thing or like the mile marker, like you're here. And then you, you know, but I like that mystery angle on it too. That's really neat. I like that. So you talked a little bit earlier about behavior change. I think

Call Center Case: Not A Service Issue

Jackie Pelegrin 12:19

that's that's so important. So you're known in your in your work for designing learning that supports that sustained behavior change. What do you think are some of the most important ingredients that have to be in place for behavior change to actually stick after the training ends?

Dr. Steven Linley 12:34

Yeah, uh, that's a great question. One of the one of the things to to keep in mind is is training in and of itself generally doesn't change a lot of behavior. Uh because to get behavior change, you need to you need people that want to do something, they're expected to do something, they're trained to do it, uh, and then they're supported to do it. Uh generally we're really good in the middle, you know, like setting an expectation and training people to do it. But what gets missed a lot significantly is is that motivation part in the front. Is like, is the learner connecting to the material? Is the learner connecting to the instructor? Uh is the learner connecting to the the person that's going to coach them on the back end? And then and then we're also missing that back part, which is that support. It's like, are they actually being coached? Uh because I'm, you know, you you you brought up this like the the the the training request. Um I've I've found a lot because I've I did leadership development for you know almost 20 years. Um and there's a lot of training that happens because there's a performance issue and the leader doesn't know what to do about it. It's like, well, let's let's you know the team's now performing, let's put them through a training program over here, and then like like the training people will take care of it, the learning people will take care of that, and then my people will come back magically better. So they'll know more. That doesn't mean that they're gonna perform better. Performance has if you get into like work engagement and and work performance, one of the biggest influences, uh, if you look at like research from Gallup or ADP, um, there's like 50 years of psychometric data at this point that that's that's showing that uh 70% of variance in team engagement is attributed to management quality. It's like is mind is like not just management overall, but specifically a person's direct supervisor. It's like what's my relationship like with my direct supervisor? And and if that's a strong relationship and they're giving me like weekly conversations about performance in weekly is is is not hyperbole, like literally weekly. Um and and are they coaching me on what needs to be done? Um, because because there's times where I'll talk to a leader and I'll say like we'll say the team's not performing, we do we need training, and then I'll ask a question, like a simple question. It's like if you gave them the ultimatum of either do this task right now, this is just a thought experiment. I'm not saying you should actually do this.

unknown 15:15

Right.

Dr. Steven Linley 15:17

Um if you gave them the the the alternative of do this task or you get fired, could they do it? And if the answer is yes, then it's not a training issue. They already know how to do that. That's a coaching issue. Let's let me work with you on your on your management structure and your management processes because they already, if they know how to do it and they're just not, training won't fix that.

Jackie Pelegrin 15:40

Absolutely. Right. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So you're really doing a deep, uh, you're you're utilizing the four levels of Kirkpatrick's model because you're trying to, you know, the reaction, and then you're looking, what's level two? I'm trying to remember uh reaction. There's four levels of it, and I'm I'm blanking on it. I can remember level one is reaction.

Speaker 3 16:01

I'd have to look it up too.

Jackie Pelegrin 16:04

It's interesting because as you were talking about them, you know, it's like, yeah, that's so true because uh, you know, the training doesn't just end and then that's it. We have to look at it and evaluate it as it's uh as the behavior is is happening and to see is this actually

Designing For Behavior Change

Jackie Pelegrin 16:20

did the training actually cause that behavior change that we were looking for, or was it just a an add-on? And so it's very interesting because in my class this week uh we had a discussion question about Kirkpatrick's model, and it was talking about what happens if level two looks good, but then level three, you don't see that transfer of knowledge. What's happening? Where's that gap? And I think you nailed it. I think it's and some of my students did too. They talked about behavior change, how that behavior is just it's not transferring over to make it to level three. And if you can't make it to level three, you're not gonna make it to level four. So yeah, so it's uh it's missing something, you know, where you're you're getting, like you mentioned, you're getting the first part of it, but you're not getting the second part. So that's uh it's uh it's a break in the link, kind of right. You know, that link is not not fully there, so it's that chain's broken. Wow.

Dr. Steven Linley 17:14

Yeah, that's a it's a literal chain. And the literal link, if you think about brain science, the biology of learning, you know, when when we get sensory data that comes in, then our brain is always filtering things. You know, the first thing that it does when we have information that's coming in, um well literally the first thing goes to the amygdala, that's the fight or flight thing, but you know, that's a different question. Um, but you know, that's a that's a question of like like classroom safety and that type of thing, but that's a different discussion. Um but the information comes in and it goes through the uh the back integrative cortex in the temporal lobe, and it tries to find connections to things that we already know. And if it does, it'll start making that a new neural pathway to link the new information to the old information, and then then it gets transferred when there's a problem to be solved or a scenario to work through, you know, that comes in, and that's in our working memory and in the frontal lobe, and then the the information from that back integrative cortex starts talking to the information in the in the uh the front integrative cortex and it tries to figure things out. And once it decides what you're gonna do, then it moves it into the motor cortex and you actually do something about it, like physically, you know, talk, write, act. Um but every time you trigger that cycle, because because once you do something, that becomes new input, right? And the cycle keeps continuing. Input connection, uh uh analysis, motor skills. Um every time you do that, it fires that neural pathway. And and there's a substance called myelin that coats that neuropathway every time it gets fired. So if it only gets fired once, it becomes a very weak link with not a whole lot of myelin in it. But if you keep firing it over and over and over and over and over again, it gets a very solid coating of the myelin substance, like a fatty substance, over that that neuropathway and it solidifies it. So, you know, it's like you can't just tell somebody to do something once, because that's a weak link and it's easily broken. But if you have them work through something, I send them to a training event and they learn how to do something once. But if if I'm not coaching to that, when they get back to the workplace, then that weak link breaks. It's it's like a literal link. Uh, and and so I need to take them back into the workplace, and I need to fire that link over and over and over and continue to coach them through it so there's a bigger process. We we want them to want to do it, we need to expect them to do it, we need to train them, and then we need to support them as they they transfer that back to the workplace.

Jackie Pelegrin 19:51

Wow, that's amazing. I love that. And it, you know, it reminds me of a couple other uh models and theories that we use often in instructional design and. In education. And I actually did a presentation recently of her common's mastering instructional design event that she does monthly. And I talked about adult learning theory, kind of gave them, you know, a just

Brain Science Behind Transfer

Jackie Pelegrin 20:12

a refresh of it. But then I connected the ARCS model, which is about attention, relevance, that confidence, and that satisfaction was tidies really well into what you're talking about. And then also I talked about cognitive load theory and how we can motivate them. And that's great. But as you were talking about the brain, you know, we there's so much of that science behind it. And cognitive load theory by swellers just, yeah, it just fascinates me so much, all these different uh research, the different types of research they've done over the years. So that's that's fascinating too. So if we're giving the learner something over and over again, but we're giving them too much of it, it's not gonna stick either, right? Yeah, it's just gonna go into short-term memory and then it's not gonna stick in long-term memory, right?

Dr. Steven Linley 20:56

Yeah, because cognitive load is real. That deals with the working memory. There's and that's limited. There's there's only so much capacity. If we overload that working memory, that frontal lobe, it can't work, it doesn't leave enough space, uh like literal space, because you're dealing with neural pathways. Um to to think through a new thing. There's there's one of the things that I worked with some some STEM students on test taking techniques. And you know, they they were like there's formulas and and terminology that that you know kids that have to deal with. This is specifically like a like an anatomy class. And there's literally hundreds of of terms. Like the if if there's something you're worried about, the first thing you do in a test is you pull out a blank piece of paper and you write it all down so that when you get to the question, you're not trying to think about the question and remember all of this stuff. Basically, the paper becomes like this ancillary working memory that that you can you can remind yourself and it doesn't, you know, it's it's it's a trick to reduce your cognitive load when you're test taking it, reduces test anxiety. But it's it's just a side note, it has nothing to do with instructional design.

Jackie Pelegrin 22:08

Right. But it's very good, especially with curriculum, because we I work on curriculum all day. So those are that's good to know, you know, that it's so important to have that retrieval practice, right? Um that's something I don't think we talk about enough. Yeah, that's amazing. Because a lot sometimes instructors they want to put a a midterm or a final in there. And I'm like, but is that are you just looking for recall? Are you actually looking for them to remember that and take it later on and you know, take that information and um are you know, how are you looking to just do that? Because it was just recall, they're just gonna, they're not gonna remember it down the road. Yeah. So I'm like, we have to make sure these tests are meaningful and and actually get the outcome that they're looking for at the end. Um that's great. Yeah, I love that. So we're you know, when we're talking about um proving impact, what's your recommended approach for measuring learning success in a way that's realistic for most teams, but still meaningful for leaders? Because I know there's always that push-pull, right? There's that struggle between what the leaders want and what the learners actually need. So, how do you kind of help with that?

Dr. Steven Linley 23:14

Yeah, that's that's another one of the mysteries.

Jackie Pelegrin 23:17

Yes.

Dr. Steven Linley 23:18

That has to be solved. Uh it's it's a it's a giant depends because it's gonna change a lot. The only trick to to proving impact and and to have uh a good evaluation is to clarify upfront. It's like there has to be a discussion about what you're trying to do up front. So, you know, if if it's if it's in in you know, like in higher ed, um, I've worked on things like what are we working on? Is this a graduation rate thing? Is this a DFW? You know, like the students to you were trying to reduce students to get D's and F's or withdraw? You know, is this a retention issue? Uh is this an in-class engagement issue? Is it is it a grade issue? Like, what exactly are we trying to solve to? Because those are different solutions. Every one of them, they're all worthy goals, but they're different solutions. And if we're trying to solve to all of it,

Cognitive Load & Retrieval Practice

Dr. Steven Linley 24:13

that's fine. But we need to know that we're just that we're trying to solve to all of it so that we can have interventions that will address each one of those things. We can't focus on in-class engagement and expect some of the other numbers to to to go the way we want. I mean, it'll it'll affect it, of course, but but if if we want graduation rates, then then we have to do things that are outside of the classroom because because graduation has has more, there's more impact on a student's life than what's inside the classroom. So if but if all we're dealing with is is academic success, then then we can focus on what's just in the classroom. You know, so like so how you define and clarify your goal will affect how you intervene with with the problem. So so you know, you really have to figure out what what you're you're dealing with first. So what comes to mind there is a is a as an example, um the the same distribution company that that I was working with for with the call center, I was also talking to them about um their their sales department. So they had outside sales, inside sales, uh, and then once once the sales were done, then it moved over to the customer service department. But the the the vice president of sales had this development program where he would bring in all of his salespeople from all seven states, and they would take trips to the manufacturing. Again, this was with his like like plumbing products, you know, things that deal with kitchen and baths. So, you know, so he would bring them all in and we would go to like Kohler, Wisconsin, to the Kohler Fawcett uh factory, and we would go see what happened there, and we'd talk to the reps, and so we had a better, you know, the the sales reps had a better understanding of the product. Uh, and or we would go to Mowen, which is in, I if I remember correctly, that factory is in Indiana. And so he'd fly them all in, and they'd go, like all of them would go to the factory and talk to the reps and see how the mowen faucets are are are made. Everybody loved it. Like, who doesn't love a free trip on the company Dime? It's awesome.

Jackie Pelegrin 26:24

Right, I agree. Yeah.

Dr. Steven Linley 26:27

Yeah, he was getting written up in like trade journals. He's like, you know, it's like, look at look at what they're doing for their sales team, and you know, blah, blah, blah. So so when I came in, they they wanted to turn over the the that program to me. It's a it's a learning and development thing. What can you do with it? And I looked at it, and the first thing I did was look at the evidence. It's a mystery, right? What are we solving to? It's like we're training our salespeople to increase sales. That's that's our goal, right? If they know the product better, then they'll sell more product. Um, and I looked at the sales data across the entire

Proving Impact By Defining Goals

Dr. Steven Linley 27:01

timeline where the the this this program was going on, and there was no blip in sales at all. It was the it was the complete same trajectory it had been. There was no bump, there was no dips, it was just like this constant steady trend.

Jackie Pelegrin 27:15

Like a flat, like flat line, you know? Yeah, no change at all.

Dr. Steven Linley 27:19

And it's like you're spending tens of thousands of dollars on this program and you're getting no lift. Wow. My recommendation would be to have the reps come to your 52 locations because manufacturers will send their reps to to your sales team and have them treat train them on your turf on their dime. So they're paying for it. Um so then we got into this discussion. What's the goal? Because he was saying it's like, yeah, but we're getting all this great uh trade press. And it's like, so okay, so now we're dealing with is are we what's what's our end goal? What are we evaluating here for? Increased sales, ROI on the training program, or or marketing impressions? Right. So so then we had to have that discussion. It's like, what are we solving to? Because if we're solving to marketing impressions, yeah, let's keep this program going. But if our if our goal is increased sales uh or ROI on the training program, then we need to to eliminate the factory tours and bring the factory reps to us. Uh so we had the the ultimately the the the the company president got involved and he's like, nope, goal's ROI. It's like there we go.

Jackie Pelegrin 28:40

There you go. Usually that's what they want. Yeah, that's one of the things. First things I thought of is ROI. Are they are they getting a good return on their investment? Yes or no? Because it comes down to you know, brass knuckles, as they say, in the business bottom business line, right?

Speaker 3 28:55

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 28:57

We're spending 10,000. Woo, yeah, that's a lot of money. Yeah. Are we getting a sense?

Dr. Steven Linley 29:01

He was about getting the name out there. Like, I want people to know us. So so he was building a program, a development program to the wrong goal. Right. So we just needed to reorient it and realign it so that so that it fit. So that that's the that's the big thing about proving impact, is is the number one thing is clarify what you're trying to impact. Because there's so many times we don't clarify that up front, and and it gets us in trouble because now we've done this, and somebody brings up some metric that we never even considered. It's like, oh right.

Jackie Pelegrin 29:33

So you then then they spend all this time and energy creating this training program, and then they didn't get to the root of what the goal was at the end. And yeah, and a lot of times it's hard to yeah, and it's hard to have 10 goals, you know. Um yeah, it's like let's let's focus on what are, you know, what are the main goals, right? What are your what's your low-hanging fruit that you really want to accomplish with this?

Speaker 3 29:56

Because yeah, without a doubt.

Jackie Pelegrin 30:05

So Steve, I wanted to do a quick bonus question for all of our instructional designers and educators out there. So those that want to move from course creator, because I think that's what we think we are as course creators, to a strategic learning partner. What are some skills or habits that you think make the biggest difference in that mindset shift that they need to make?

Dr. Steven Linley 30:28

Yeah, the b the biggest one I think is is asking questions before you start the product creation. Because you know, I spent years as a instructional designer, instructional developer, multimedia guy. Uh, it was way too easy. Um, there there was a year that I did 82 projects in one year.

Speaker 3 30:49

Oh, wow, that's a lot.

Dr. Steven Linley 30:51

Yeah, I wasn't doing a lot of analysis. I'm just like, hey, can you do this? Yep. And I'm just cranking it up. And it we can get lost in that shuffle

Sales Program ROI Vs Marketing

Dr. Steven Linley 31:02

sometimes where it's like this is the request, they must have thought it through. This is what they want. I'm gonna kick it out because I've got to get to the next project. I don't have time to analyze and ask questions. And so, so that's the biggest mindset is stop, ask questions first. It's like, what's the mystery to be to be solved here? And really dig into to what's going on so that what we're making is the content that's gonna push performance and push uh behavior change. And the other one is to make sure that we're aligning it to the bigger process, the the bigger, whatever your work is, maybe it's corporate, maybe it's K-12, maybe it's higher ed. So there's a there's a bigger process than just what we're doing in a single event or a single classroom, and making sure that we're aligned to the bigger process flow, because that's where behavior change happens.

Jackie Pelegrin 31:53

Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. And I because a lot of times I hear, because you know, I'm in higher ed, I hear so many times we work on a course revision, and that's not that course isn't just a single course most of the time, it's part of a program. And but so many times the this happens with the curriculum developers, it happens with the faculty, they get they get so they get tunnel vision. I'm sure you've seen this a lot, where they're just focused so much on this course. And I'm like, okay, yes, we need to look at the course. And do the topics make sense? Do the objectives make sense? Do the assignments all fit? But it I always have to remind them, I'm like, but we have to take a step back because this course is part of that that whole of a program. And are we repeating something? Are we taking things out of order? And is it going to make sense for for the students as they're going through the program? So I'm glad you brought that up because that, yeah, it's happened so much. Um and it probably happens in L and D quite a bit too, right? Because they think, oh, we got to work on this training, but then maybe they fail to um make updates to other things and then other things end up being outdated, right? Um, so that's that's a challenge too. And just making sure that there's that what one of my uh editors I used to work with, she called it the change web because you make changes to one thing and it just causes this web of, oh, now this affects five other things. And uh, and if we don't we're not aware of that, you know, we could have outdated material in no time.

Dr. Steven Linley 33:21

Yeah, especially when you're dealing, you know, in in a corporate setting, there's there's onboarding, there's learning and development that goes with onboarding, but there's also learning and development that goes with upskilling or cross-skilling. And a lot of those times, like someone will update a uh upskill or a cross-skill program and forget about the onboarding. Oh gosh. So it's like, you know, like there's skills being taught in on all those things. Someone new maybe getting something skilled in an onboarding, but if it's missed in the cross-skilling for the person that's been there 10 years, it's like it's like being able to coordinate those things. But but yeah, and but in in the same thing with it with the uh example that you brought up of of looking at a full curriculum is a huge thing. Uh working with a math professor, and she's doing we were we were adding experiential um learning activities into her classes, but but she was working uh on classes that affect uh a math minor for science majors. So, you know, like your biology students, kinesiology, anatomy, physiology, you know, it's like like those all need a pretty healthy math based. So it's just like, okay, it's like these are these these are great ex you know, experiential examples. Like, can can we add a kinesiology one in? Can we add a can we add a biology one in? So we can start getting some some thoughts about how to cross-pollinate what we're learning with math into into their major. Like, let's let's connect that major and that and that minor a lot uh uh closer. So yeah, those are those are big issues. Like, how does it fit with the bigger workflow? Uh and and if it's a skill-based thing, is like how do we rebuild that into the leadership flow so

From Order Taker To Strategic Partner

Dr. Steven Linley 35:05

that the leaders will continually coach that so that we can keep firing that that biological learning cycle.

Jackie Pelegrin 35:11

Absolutely. Yeah, and doing it in a way that uh that continues to build that skill, right? So they don't so the learner doesn't feel like, wait, I've learned this before. This feels repetitive, but it it feels like, okay, this is actually challenging me, right? It's it's giving me more deep critical thinking and um and uh but yet we're like you said, we're we're fine-tuning that, right? And those neuropathways. That's so important. I love that uh the the neurobiology behind that. That's fascinating. Absolutely. Yes. So as we wrap up, Steven, uh, what's one practical shift that listeners that are that are gonna be listening to this that they can make this week that would immediately improve the learning experiences they design or the results they're getting from them? Because we talked a lot about results too.

Dr. Steven Linley 36:00

Right. Yeah, I think and I'm gonna I'm gonna do a repetitive thing here. So like we're firing that that process again. Yes, I love it. I just want to bring back ask questions aligned to the bigger process. And those that's that's a a quick hit. Just don't take, we're not order takers, we're creators. So let's make sure that we're creating the right product for the right person at the right time. It's like it's like as as we're self, because we're we know we have to understand the learners. That because that's one of the other things that we forget sometimes is we get crunched with with what we're designing, with time crunches and the number of projects that we're dealing with. And and we've we're focusing on it's like I'm gonna disseminate this content as opposed to I'm gonna think about specifically this learner and how does that learner need to have this information and how do they need to consume this information so that they can use it back in their site. So it's like ask questions not only about the content, but ask questions about the learner. I do this with with my faculty. The things like I'll go and do an observation of their class, or if it's an asynchronous online, you know, I'll go go read through their posts uh or in whatever you know uh product that they're they're turning in to show that they've learned. Um and then my first question when I sit down with the faculty is tell me about your students. I'm not asking about the content, I'm not asking about how they taught it or how they disseminated the information or the activities. Like the first question, tell me about your learner. And that fires all the processes that we use for designing. Because once they start thinking about the learner, well, my learners they're doing this or that, and you know, I'll get down to the specifics. Like you had you had a uh a female student in the third row that sat by the windows and she didn't say anything the whole time. Tell me about her, or tell me about him, or tell me about they. It's like if you understand the learner, then you're in a much better spot to design something that they can they they'll be motivated to use and motivated to transfer into the into whatever uh work setting that they go to.

Jackie Pelegrin 38:13

Right. I think that's so important. It's it's like that uh that learner journey. You want to do that journey mapping, right? And figure out what are their their what are their wants,

Align Courses To The Larger System

Jackie Pelegrin 38:24

what are their needs, how do they how how are they thinking, how are they feeling? It's like that that journey map. And then you come up with a learner persona and and then that guides your your training and your you know the development. So that's so important. I love that. Yeah, that's great. Asking questions, so important. Don't just assume, right? Yeah. And I mean I like what you said too about the order takers. I was thinking about that earlier because sometimes we can feel like that's what that's what we were becoming, right? And it's like, oh, I'm not an order taker. I I actually have purpose and I have experience. So, you know, when a faculty member or when a management team is throwing things at someone, just uh take a step back, right? And think, is this really necessary and is this going to benefit the learners? Because I think that learner-centered approach is so important today. Yeah, that's great. Wonderful. Well, Steven, thank you so much again for being here and for sharing such practical, grounded insights that my listeners can actually approve me right away, which is wonderful. And that's one of the reasons why I do this podcast. So I know this conversation is going to help instructional designers and educators think more strategically about learning performance and behavior change, which is what this is all about today. So for anyone that wants to keep learning from you, what's the best way to reach out to you or to connect?

Dr. Steven Linley 39:43

Uh you can find me at on LinkedIn. It's Stephen Lindley PhD. Um you can uh focus group uh again with a K, it's a Scandinavian spelling F O K U S. Uh Focus Group is also on LinkedIn, or focusgroup.io is the is the company website. So the big thing is LinkedIn. That's where I'm always talking to people. So please, please hit me up.

Jackie Pelegrin 40:06

Great. I wonder wonderful. Well, I look forward to having you back on the show anytime. Doors always open. So once somebody comes back on, they're uh they're welcome back anytime. So I'd love to have you back on. And maybe we can dig a little bit deeper into the behavioral part and maybe the science and stuff like that. That would be fascinating to learn more about that because I'd love to kind of see, you know, what you studied when you were um getting your PhD and then just how that's translated into practice. So yeah, maybe we can do a deeper dive into that down the channel.