Autonomy That Actually Works with Hamza Sami

Jackie Pelegrin 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast. I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer. Hello, instructional designers and educators. Welcome to episode 106 of the Designing with Love podcast. This is part two of my three-part series with Hansa Tommy focused on right-size autonomy for adult learners in college and corporate context. We'll ground the conversation in Null Self-Directed Learning or SDL in Vyoski's Zone of Proximal Development or DPD. Welcome back to the show, Hansa.

Hamza Sami 0:41

Hi, Jackie. Thank you for having me.

Jackie Pelegrin 0:44

Yes, thank you so much. Good to be back. So it's evening for you now that at the time of this recording. So I appreciate you taking the time and everything with your family and being able to come on the show and talk to me about some of this and have this great conversation.

Hamza Sami 1:03

Of course, it's my pleasure.

Defining Autonomy Across Contexts

Jackie Pelegrin 1:07

Yes. So to help us make autonomy tangible across settings, uh, what does appropriate autonomy look like in a college course versus maybe corporate training?

Motivation, Roles, & Risk Tolerance

Scaffolded Autonomy In College

Task-Oriented Autonomy At Work

Hamza Sami 1:19

Okay, so before we start uh like comparing the the college courses versus the corporate training, uh we can start by defining the autonomy. Um so we are on the same page. Uh we can simply put it uh like it's the ability to take charge of one's learning, the ability to be self-mode motivated uh or responsible for our own learning. So the the if we if we look at the college courses versus the corporate training, we can see that uh the con the context is different, the setting itself is different. Now, uh like how college students uh versus uh the employees perceive their environment and how they are perceived by uh by their superiors, for example, the the teachers, uh the students by their teachers and the employees by their uh managers and so on. Even if you think about it, the if we think about the smallest details, the the seating uh setting or how they set it's different. Uh in in the college, they sit in rows and they are facing the lecturer. Although we we try in our in our center, we try to to make it in a round shape or semi-round uh circle. So we give it this uh you know discussion vibe. Uh as opposed to the training, or the if we speaking about the corporate, uh they sit in a desk like uh uh areas, you know. So but we can we can think also about different aspects when we compare the college courses and the corporate training, for example, the aspects such as the learning or learner motivation, uh, the instructor role uh and the structure uh uh of that uh autonomy. Now, for the motivation of the learner in the college courses, it's usually extrinsic. Uh they want uh a grade, they they need a degree. Uh but uh in the corporate it's usually intrinsic uh or performance-based. They want to uh you know bridge this skill gap or they want a career growth. Uh if we think about the aspect of the instructor, the role of the instructor in the college courses is facilitators uh who try to nurture the self-regulated learning habits. Uh while in the corporate training, we're talking about coach or mentor uh to align the autonomy with organizational goals. Now the structure, uh if we look at the structure as an aspect, uh in the college courses it's curriculum defined. Um it's more we have more space for exploration or reflection. Uh while in the training or the corporate training, it's business-driven outcomes. Uh we want outcomes from the employees so to meet our business goals and so on. So the autonomy here is within the performance uh and the procedure boundaries. That's why uh the difference in that area in the structure uh between the college and the the corporate is they are in the college we are you're allowed to make uh mistakes, to you are allowed to take risks uh uh compared to the corporate world. What it will cost you if you make mistakes in the in the college, uh a lower degree, for example, or sorry, a grade, lower grade, what's the worst that could happen? You could uh fail and redo the the course. That's the worst that could happen to you. But in the in the in the corporate world, you might lose your job. So so that's what I learned from my remember from my college teachers, and that's what I always tell my students, just try take risks here, because you will you might not be able to to do it uh uh in the in in your career, for example, when you graduate. So so that's uh something to to focus on. Now uh to answer your question, uh the appropriate autonomy, uh how it looks like, for example, in college courses we we are speaking about scaffolded uh autonomy. So we give the students freedom, but progressively. For example, we can uh of course uh uh explore it more uh later, but we can give like examples just such as they can choose the project outcomes. For example, in media uh our media students, we when we ask them in a project or assignment, they can choose the medium, uh how they can represent uh or present their work, uh whether in graphic design, uh time-based, like animation or video, uh photography, so stuff like that, you know. Uh we can encourage also reflection. Uh when we encourage reflection, the students will learn to evaluate their progress and take responsibilities. So uh we do that also in our assignments, such as the you know, we we ask the students to write a reflective journal about uh uh their uh progress in the assignment, uh in especially in project-based uh uh courses. Uh maybe write a weekly status report, they submit it a week uh every week and they reflect on their performance and so on. Now in the care corporate training, um it's mainly task-oriented autonomy. So learners have more control when and how to learn, uh as long as of course they meet the business's outcomes. Uh for example, in our uh center, we uh we do uh conduct trainings for our teachers, but at the same time, like two or yeah, we two or three per term to ensure quality, of course. But at the same time, uh they have access to our LMS, a learning management system, where they have uh the Moodles uh we want them to be aware of, and uh they they choose it as they they need it, you know. Uh it's not uh it's not it's not uh like a prerequisite they have to learn this first than that, you know. No, they whenever they feel they want to learn something, for example, about the the system, the um the delivery, for example, things like that. So they or they want to like use some skill gap learning, so they can do it uh anytime. So these are some brief examples about how uh we can uh like uh what's the appropriate autonomy for them.

Seating, Belonging, & Dialogue

Jackie Pelegrin 8:16

Right. I love that. Well, and I love Hamza how you set that up too, and you explained what uh what that looks like in both settings, um, you know, with the college courses uh and the corporate to see the difference, right? And how autonomy is different for both settings. Because as instructional designers and educators, we need to know that so that we can create the appropriate type of curriculum or the appropriate type of training, right? Um, so it that's so important because when I first started as an instructional designer, I started in employee training and development. And now I'm in higher education curriculum. So I didn't, you know, when I first came into the higher education curriculum or when I was when I had applied for the job at the university, um I remember when I was working with a corporate recruiter and she said, just know that when you go into curriculum, whether it's higher education or K through 12, but she said, when you go into that, it's gonna be different than employee training. And she was right. It's definitely different and how you approach it and yeah, and everything. So I love how you talked about even the setup too, because that brought me back to when I was going to the community college. I remember the the setup like that, where we were all in rows, we weren't and we were facing the the instructor, right? And then when I went to uh another university, um, it's it's for working adults, it's called University of Phoenix out here, but um, we would meet one night a week. We would do evening cohorts, and they had it set up to where, like what you were talking about, where they did it in a like a circle format.

Hamza Sami 9:55

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 9:55

Yeah, like a semicircle. And then the instructor was still up front, but we had a semicircle so we could all have that discussion and and really see each other and not just see the instructor and facing them. So it was really great. And it was also a great setup for doing group presentations because one of the requirements that they had it, and they they still have it at University of Phoenix is learning teams where every single class you have to work with a learning team. That's the requirement. And that, you know, it's funny because some of my students will actually complain sometimes about having group assignments with online classes. And I'm like, I'm like, please don't complain about that. You know, I feel like saying that to them, but I don't. But I'm like, um, yeah, I'm like, I had to do that in every class. And were there challenges? Of course. Even in even in uh in settings where we were in person, we still had issues. Like someone wouldn't pull their weight in the assignment or they wouldn't, you know, submit their part so we could get it together in time. So someone else would have to step up and do that. But it taught me a lot about collaboration and working together, and then it helped me for my jobs too. Um, so yeah, it's very interesting. And then employ employee training, I agree with you. There's that difference there. So I appreciate you kind of breaking that down, you know, and everything. I like that.

Hamza Sami 11:14

Yeah, I wanted to ask you which set setup you prefer more. Uh the um, you know, the the role style of uh like seating or or setup or the semicircle when you were a student.

Jackie Pelegrin 11:29

I like the semicircle because uh it's nice to be able to um have those discussions going on and where it's not just instructor directed, where the learner feels like they're part of the process and there it's more self-directed learning because um yeah, it's not just the instructor taking ownership of the discussion, but the the um students and the learner feels part of it. So I like that because I've I feel like I'm I'm uh I'm part of that process and I'm able to uh get more out of it too as a as a student. So yeah, I like that semicircle best for sure. Yeah.

Hamza Sami 12:06

Of course, it's always blown my mind how we are like all these years we use the same the same uh setup since for ages. Right. Yeah, but it's of course it's more effective to have a semicircle. I agree with you 100%.

Jackie Pelegrin 12:20

Yeah.

Hamza Sami 12:21

Yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 12:21

Yeah, they're uh you know, I noticed they're even doing that in elementary school now. They're setting it up so that they have like little ta like either like tables where they have the students sit around these uh these tables as groups or um something like that. So I think they're starting to get away from that in even elementary and high school, because I think they're realizing that that setup is just not conducive to learning. Um, because why why would you wanna be, you know, because you're always gonna have, I think, um, and I remember this in grade school and high school, you're always gonna have the ones that are gonna want to sit at the even college, the ones that are gonna want to sit in the back, right? So they don't get the attention of the teacher and everything, and they don't get called on. And then you're gonna have the ones that want to sit up front because they're like, I want to pay attention and I I want to do really well. So, you know, with the semicircle format, everybody's equal in that, you know, there's no front, back, middle, you know, it's just we're all equal. And yeah, it's like it's like that saying goes, we all get a seat at the table. So, you know, I like I like that format. So yeah. So hopefully those listening, you know, can kind of advocate for that in, you know, whichever setting they teach in or uh or do training in. I um, you know, I would always advocate for that for sure.

Hamza Sami 13:38

Well, I hope so.

Assessing Readiness For Self-Direction

Jackie Pelegrin 13:40

Yeah, exactly. So um, so we talked a little bit about that, you know, how readiness varies widely in adult learning cohorts, um, you know, especially going from college, you know, to corporate and things like that. So what's one good way to assess uh learners' readiness for self-direction and then calibrate those supports accordingly so that they have what they need to move forward?

ZPD Basics & When To Step In

Hamza Sami 14:07

That's a great question, Jackie, because it's it's very important to understand the learner's readiness before we start applying the uh the principles of autonomy and the self-direction and so on. Uh but if we define first uh if we're talking about adult learners, if we define them, we can if we say like they are simply those aged uh 25 years and above. Uh so it's not uh I found out that it's not about age uh alone, it's about maturity, you know. They have to be mature, they have to have real-world experience or sense of relevance, uh and some elements that shape learners' confidence to take ownership of their own working. And um there are some ways to assess uh that for example by gradual learning. Now, I have uh uh a case I would like to share with my uh about my students. I experienced fair experienced it uh firsthand. Um now uh with our media students, we we give them in the first year we there's uh an individual project course. Uh now in this course uh there's it's a pierce uh it's called Pearson Set uh unit. So basically it's set by Pearson, we have to give it as it is. Uh the theme of the project is provided and the topic is uh chosen for the students. So they just do the project, you know. They just do the research and they they learn about project management and the execution until they produce an outcome which is uh media-based outcome, uh based on their choice. So their their only choice is to how to do the uh the topic or how to conduct uh to uh uh their only choice is about the outcome, let's say. Now in the second year, the theme is chosen for them. However, the they need to choose a topic from uh let's say five topics. It's their choice. So I remember my students they used to say, okay, we are confused which which topic to choose. We have so many options, so many choices. So of course I used to sit with them and try to ask them, and we would brainstorm, uh, do some researches, ask them questions, give them text to you know to reach with them uh how they uh choose their their topic. But the same students, uh you see how they were confused in the second year? The same students when they went to the last year, the third year, uh in a in uh in a degree with our partner university, uh it's uh work-based uh degree. So the students should be uh working either volunteer or part-time or full-time, but they should have a job. In this program, this our students, the same students, they are asked to do their own assignments. They have to write their own learning outcomes or objectives and write their own assignments and do the assignments. Imagine. So imagine these are the same students. You see how they are they are gradually uh were like um how how to say it, like they were um uh what's the word? I can't like they gradually learned how to to take control of their own learning, you know. Uh and until they reach to a point where they are they make their own, they assess their own themselves, you know, they assess their own learning. Uh instead of we writing the assignment for them and uh we uh assess them based on certain assessment criteria, no, they write their assessment criteria, they're write their learning outcome. So this is an example of uh the gradual learning. Uh another uh example is the formative assessment, the learning while and for uh sorry, assessing while and for uh learning. Uh the formative assessment for students, for example, we can do uh group discussion, uh any class activities. Then we can like for those who have difficulties, they can do one-to-one uh individual and uh meeting and give them individual tests. Uh for employees, we can do reflective practice. For example, uh, I remember when we have uh an annual review with uh with uh my learning director. She would meet with us uh once every year to like to review performance, to you know speak about uh our own performance, uh you know, goals, things like that. So these also they can uh give us um how to say to assess our own uh progress or readiness for to take the next step.

Jackie Pelegrin 19:44

Wow, that's great. I love that. Well, and I I like how you mentioned that that they gradually um were able to get to the point where they could they could create their own uh type of outcomes, and that's what we really want, right? That's the ultimate goal. So it almost makes me think of Blim's taxonomy, where you have the lower order thinking skills and you have the higher order thinking skills to where they can get to the point. I actually have this uh this, it's laminated, but I have it, it was something that my coworker gave me. You you probably like it because it has a it's a two-sided sheet of paper. You can actually print it two-sided, but it's two pages, and it has the Bloom's taxonomy um, you know, on it, and it has like the old and the new on it, so and the ones that are shared between the different levels. But then on the other side, it has the verbs to avoid, like understand and things like that. But I I actually, when I got the job and I was working in the office, I noticed that my coworker had it laminated, and I'm like, that's a great idea. I love that. Because if I'm gonna be carrying this everywhere and taking it to meetings, I need to have something that's gonna be sturdy and go with me. So now I have it here at home. And it's funny because my coworkers know when I'm ready to pull it out because I go to the side and I pull it out. Oh, Jackie's pulling out her bloom sheet. And I'm like, yep, exactly, because I want to make sure that you know, we I used it the other day and I was like, okay, so you know, I asked those questions. What do we want students to do upon the completion of this topic? Or what is your outcome of this assignment? Let's look at that and then let's match the objectives to that and make sure that we're getting them towards that scaffolding and that self-directed learning to where, you know, throughout the course we're not using verbs like identify, describe, right? At the beginning, maybe, but you know, you want to progress it right throughout the course so that they can build upon that. And then by the end, they have that solid foundation and then they can go into their next course knowing, yes, I have the skills I need to move forward. So that's so important. Yeah, I love that. That's great. Yep. Now, one of the things we have in our classes, I think you would like this, Hamsa, is they have a uh DQ question at the very beginning. So they do in our online classes, they do a class introduction so we can all get to know each other and kind of build that community. But there's another discussion question and it's called summary of current course knowledge. And what students are asked to do during that first week is they're asked to look at the whole entire syllabus, look at the objectives, look at the assignments, kind of not really in detail, but just kind of get a holistic view of it and see what do I know already? What do I, what do I not know, right? What do what knowledge do I not have coming into this uh course? And what kind of questions do I have or what kind of discussions do I want to have with my instructor and my classmates? And I love when students do that. I mean, it sometimes instructors or students think of it as uh just another thing they have to do, but I'm like, it's so important because when my students answer that and they answer, they they do a good job of giving me that information, that helps me to tailor my instruction. So it's really great to see that and what they have coming into the class and then what what I can help them, you know, accomplish along the way. So it's it's a beautiful thing. It's kind of like what you were talking about with that. So yeah, that's neat.

Knowles’ SDL: Choice, Reflection, Feedback

Hamza Sami 23:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That uh like knowing or testing the prior knowledge of your students is very important because it will save you a lot of time explaining things uh they might already know, you know, or uh they might do uh like they can they can save some time by preparing the class, you know, preparing the subject of the class. Also, it will be a student-centered uh centered uh approach or a student-led uh approach, maybe uh to start with like a discussion so uh this way you can uh know uh where what subject you should focus more on. Uh you can assess the their knowledge, uh like the different uh knowledge they have, uh different students, different level they uh you know of understanding. Uh and based on that, you you start to fill these gaps they have, you know, and uh and and make them reach to the to the material by themselves. For example, we do a lot of that in uh the discussion. We we focus on uh any class uh discussion a lot in our uh approach in our center because uh, for example, uh the the teacher will ask the students to uh uh research uh in the class, research, give them like 10 minutes to research or look up uh a topic, then uh they present their findings and discuss discuss it with the with the learners, with their peers, with the with the teachers. So this way is it's like you know, in in uh instructional design, we have in especially the scenario-based uh style, we we do we have the the branching, you know. So if the the learner will answer this, uh will give this answer, it will take them to this to cover this uh aspect of the of the material or the training. And if they answer this way, this means they pass a level if we're doing gamification, for example, and so on. And you have to look for patterns uh where where where do learners ask for clear clarification, for example, or make the most errors in uh about a topic. So you you put your focus uh uh in the on that area, you know. So it's yeah, of course, uh knowing having the knowledge about their prayer prior knowledge, it's uh it's very it's a good time saver and uh it's very effective.

Jackie Pelegrin 25:29

Right, yeah, I love that. And I love that branching too. That's really great because they feel like they're taking control of their learning and they can make those choices and it's not made for them, right? Which adult learners love that, right? They like to be able to make a choice in their learning and it kind of takes them on an adventure, right? Where they can say, okay, I made this decision, what are the outcomes going to be because of that? So yeah, I really like that. And I like too what you mentioned about being able to see where they get tripped up the most and where do they have the most questions, or if the if you have a check for understanding, say somewhere in there, how many learners are actually having to go back and redo it, right? Or how you know, and or if you have a a quiz at the end, you know, what what questions are they missing the most? Yeah, it helps to have that evaluation piece, you know, at multiple points in time and not just once, but continuously evaluate, right? Yeah. You know, it helps with that continuous improvement.

Hamza Sami 26:28

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Pelegrin 26:29

So yeah, absolutely. So ZPT um helps us stretch without overload, which I really like that because that this ties so much into cognitive overload. We don't want to overload learners, but what's one simple method that can help instructors identify a learner's um ZPD and match the scaffolds to it?

LMS, Microlearning, & AI Guardrails

Ethical AI Use & Workforce Prep

Hamza Sami 26:52

Okay, so uh just to give uh our learners a heads up about uh what we're talking about here, we're talking about uh Vygotsky's uh zone of proximal development uh and uh the scaffolding, also, which is uh another uh it's it's said that uh it was taken from him, um but uh let's just uh define the the uh the concept. Scaffolding is uh guided support uh given at an appropriate level. That's basically it. Uh it begins with demonstration or example, and it's followed by uh student action with feedback along the way. Uh now the ZPD is the potential held by an individual learner to go further than they might do alone. So the the uh Vygotsky might say that in in close collaboration relationships, uh the student is in the zone of proximal development. If it results in the learners uh learning more than they could by working independently, so it's a sh social learning uh by uh by by by its concept, you know. Uh learner happens twice. Uh firstly uh in from the outside uh in the social world, then secondly, uh when it becomes internalized. And the language is the medium, you know, the dialogue and the interaction that they are the means uh by which the individual comprehends the social world. Uh so we gave an example about uh having uh uh we were talking about uh having the like testing the prior knowledge and having discussions. So this is the social learning part. After that, the learner what we'll do is this is an example, of course, of uh or a sim uh an a simple method uh to answer a question. Uh we we talked about it uh you know uh having discussions so the so the learner uh will uh after after this discussion they will try to internalize their their own thinking uh and come to a conclusion where they like uh uh make some ideas about what they learned. But it's very important to know when to answer uh when to answer and when to ask the questions. Uh you know, about the prayer learning. When when when the when the students ask questions or um uh we we we are expected to answer them as instruct instructors, right? But uh what we do is we don't prefer uh as like I usually um when we discuss with our teachers, we tell them do not answer the the quest uh the uh the students' questions right away. Try to make them look for the answer. But it's very important to know when to to do that, you know. Uh I remember uh in one of our um I do uh uh supervision meetings with our students like uh bi weekly just to check their performance, how they are doing, how you know, in general. So one of the students complained about this actually. He told me like when we asked uh the teacher, I was telling them how is the teacher doing, how is everything, you know, are you doing well? He said, like uh when we ask it's the teacher, he doesn't answer us, he just keeps asking us questions. I told him, Yeah, of course, you uh he's he shouldn't do that, you should look for the answer. If you cannot find it, he will help you, you know. Because I understand what the teacher is doing, of course. Because um I do that with uh with my students, but it's sometimes you just you just to know when to do that you know uh you do you you don't have to overdo it you know um sometimes you just you need to give them the answer because they want it to to you know to they're not in the mood to search you know they want like ChatGBT remember we were talking in the previous episode about like just going directly to ChatGBT just ask them questions because it's easier and faster uh they don't want to get out of their comfort zone and to do the hard work while thinking and searching. So depends on uh like the the instructor will assess when to do that. Now for the employees um it's the same thing but it's with different tools. For example um uh once the uh ZPD is identified we can match uh support based on what kind of gap uh uh the the employee has whether is it cognitive gap skill gap confidence gap if is if it's uh cognitive gap we can use guided questioning or job aids things like that if it's skill gap we can use demonstration peer monitoring things like that also confidence gap we can do quick wins um affirmation so it depends uh on the context and uh what we are talking about right exactly because we want to make sure it's not a one size fits all and that we're tailoring the learning to what the learn what those learners need right yeah that's so important I love that wow and I love that example that you gave that was great uh the the examples really help drive it home because it's it's almost like when we learn the the models and the theories unless we actually have an example or see it in practice it's it's really hard to wrap your brain around it.

Jackie Pelegrin 32:26

So I I love having those examples. So um yeah so did you want to kind of dig deeper a little bit into the SDL principles as well and kind of maybe talk about a type of assignment or maybe feedback patterns that can help increase that autonomy without overwhelming learners. Did you want to kind of go into that a little bit?

Hamza Sami 32:46

Yeah of course the SDL we are talking about the self-directed learning uh which is by Knowles uh it's it's focuses on three uh key parts which is uh choice reflection and feedback that the feedback is along the way of course now the goal here is to help learners learn how to learn independently not not to work alone uh so we can what we can do uh is we can uh start with structured autonomy begin with guided choices options with the like with but with boundaries of course uh for uh we gave an example of choosing the topic in the remember in the in the collaborative project in the second year they choose the topic uh or they choose the uh the presentation medium uh for media students for example then that we can progress toward an open-ended autonomy gradually we talked about gradual learning or gradually release uh the control as learner build confidence and competence for example uh I teach a professional uh practice and uh course and uh a work experience course uh we here we ask in the assignment we ask the students to write their own professional development uh and they have to write their own um objectives they they their own goals that they can they have to put their own success criteria and uh build on it what they will do and uh in work experience they have to do it so basically work experience is a course where they have to spend 80 hours of uh actual work uh experience like internship um apprenticeship uh or shadowing any type they choose so here we are uh a asking asking them to to uh to have control on their own goals and uh achieve it so this will give them motivation also for the feedback uh we can uh promote reflections it's very important the reflection is very effective actually uh instead of asking them why did you do this or uh if you tried this approach we can ask them what led you to this approach uh how would you evaluate this using the rubric you designed for example or the success criteria uh and so on um but we have to balance uh freedom with uh support uh because autonomy without guidance it's abandon abandonment you know uh the the the teacher's role is very important they they have to be there um uh so they have to to provide transparent uh like uh expectations and feedback and checkpoints not to leave the learners okay you have a deadline after three months you have to submit this uh and you have the autonomy no this is not autonomy you know they will be lost I assure you yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah we don't want to abandon them right absolutely yeah I love that because you know Noel's you know self-directed learning is something I think that is not given enough attention especially in adult learning we focus on some other models and theories right in adult learning but I think that needs to be something that we we don't lose sight of um and even Viaski's you know uh I think those are so important but you know I remember when I was in my master's program and we learned all about those and but then we put so much focus on Addy and adult learning theory and all of that.

One Small Change: Ask Better Questions

Jackie Pelegrin 36:21

I mean they all tie into each other but yeah I think it's so important not to lose sight of how important you know Knowles brought that forth with that and and to make sure that we don't lose sight of it. So that's great. I love that. So I'm glad we're we're going over that in this episode absolutely so you talked a little bit about like the LMS and different features that can help. So given that all these different tools and we talked about this in the prior episode too a little bit about the AI tools but we want those to serve the pedagogy of course and and not to just be fluff right or eye candy but we want them to really serve the students well. So how how do you think an instructor or facilitator can decide when those LMS features like microlearning or AI copilots actually support autonomy and build that confidence for learners as well we have to agree that tools don't create autonomy design decisions to we agreed on that I think in from the last uh episode we have to ask uh does this tool help learners to take more ownership of their learning process or not?

Hamza Sami 37:31

So we in this way we can set learning objectives uh what kind of autonomy am I trying to build here cognitive metagog cognitive or behavioral? For the learning management system platforms they can promote autonomy if used beyond content delivery for example uh we we can do a progress tracking uh dashboards which help learners to self-monitor those so they can assess themselves as they go and see where they are doing well and they win where they need improvement. Also we to spoke about the reflective journals or discussion forums they share their own experience with their peers and their instructors we use that a lot in our courses also which encourages also self-assessment and peer learning. Now we can use also we talked about the using the use of micro learning whether for for students or teachers in the teacher training we use that in our LMS um so they can choose which micro units fit their immediate needs. For example let's say a salesman is having trouble understanding the customer's body language for example and they have uh next week they have uh a deal they need to attend to or meeting with the customers things like that so they they want uh this uh specific uh topic to learn about the body language so they assess learning or they access learning sorry uh just in time not just in case you know so uh it's timely also it's very important without a clear pathway too many choices will be overwhelming if you provide them to the to your whether students or employees yeah about the AI uh it is powerful we spoke about it a lot uh it can be a remember I remember your your um you're referring to it as a learner partner learner's partner it's very important to look at it this way um then they can they can use it to brainstorm ideas get feedback on their writing you know uh organize their material things like that or uh maybe assess them or you know to do keep in their metagognition uh but they also need to share it with the with the coach or money mentor or or their instructor for for advice you know not just to rely rely on it right that's so true yeah it's uh it's interesting how my students are using AI tools and some of the I think we mentioned this in the last episode some of them will think they're cheating and so well you have your guardrails so that's good you're questioning it but uh it's it's very interesting I actually I I don't know if I talked about this in the first episode we did but I have a uh and it's something the university has too it's a stoplight method for AI so it kind of lets them know okay this is green this is green this is yellow this is red and so I have it in all my weekly announcements to say you know here and it's you know it reminds them week by week and and I also attach a document from the university that says gives them more guidance because I think the more we can guide them right and let them know what those guardrails are I think um I think that helps set them up for success so they don't go beyond what what they should like for example reflections right should just should that should be their own work and they should not utilize AI for that.

Jackie Pelegrin 41:05

But they can use it for brainstorming like you said or outlining or something like that. So it's it's really important for that. Yeah and then I've got certain announcements for specific assignments where they're tasked with using AI. And so it's really really great to have that. So I think you'd appreciate this one assignment my students have in this class that I'm teaching where they have to they're doing this workplace training it's for a it's a fake company but it's a technology company where they have to do it has it's about workplace safety and about uh ethics workplace workplace ethics and so a lot of my students are in education or they're in especially K through 12 so they don't know about corporate training very much but they're supposed to work with the AI tool to kind of come up with some of those policies and procedures and then create an e-learning. And so it's kind of neat because they get to kind of get the AI to kind of say okay what what kind of things should I work on and what kind of things should I include but they still have to use their judgment right and so it's very interesting to yeah to see what they come up with and how the finished product is is truly their own. So it's it's really neat. That's great yeah how we're incorporating it. Yeah it's really cool and uh yeah and the university has actually increased it they want to have a threshold right now of where we want to incorporate AI as much as we can because I'm hearing more and more I don't know if you are in what where you're working but uh we're hearing in the higher education sphere we're hearing how when you go out and ask employers because we have a relationship with a lot of different agencies and employers um at Grand Canyon. And so we ask them we have employer surveys that we even do for graduates that get jobs and the one of the top things, I think it's like number two or number three almost always is how to use AI technology in the job. So we know it's there and yeah it's not going anywhere. So if we expose our students to it and have them use it ethically, I think it prepares them for the workforce and for what's ahead right in the workforce. So it's really great.

Hamza Sami 43:21

And then you what do you think about having them do that even in training as well do you um do you see where we can help bridge that gap a little bit more so if they're doing it in their college courses and then when they get that that job we can also train them in in using AI ethically in their jobs as well right in that that environment yeah yeah definitely this is a very important tool we talked about the AI literacy or the digital literacy for for both the teachers or the employees in their any any sectors or we they have to learn how to use that because they might get in trouble or put their the the company or the organization in trouble if they use it incorrectly. And also they have they should have their own training for their employees aside from the policies and procedures. I remember in my research when in my desk study about using ChatGBT in education I read uh and a research a study done uh in programming for computing students uh one of the one of the instructors mentioned that uh I can't let my students use ChatGBT or AI generative uh tools to to generate codes because this I uh when they go to the uh when they graduate and go to the company they might put their company in in in trouble you know because uh the uh they have to come up and the they have to create the code you know but the here in the in ai they are using a public um codes you know so there's uh like a lawsuit uh risk uh in that area so it's very important as you said the uh to do trainings for to prepare the students uh about what are what are the p possible consequences they might face if they use it uh misuse it you know misuse the the AI tools right absolutely wow so important yeah so Hamza as we wrap up this episode uh wanted to pose a final question for someone who wants to start incorporating these principles that you talked about maybe tomorrow or next week um into their their courses or into their training what's one small change you think they can integrate to most effectively increase learner autonomy I think if there's one small change I would suggest uh start asking better questions uh about uh how to increase learner autonomy by asking uh the who, the why, the when the what and the how uh because autonomy doesn't start by giving more freedom as we said it starts by understanding what kind of freedom uh the learners they need so if we ask the who it's about our learners the the learners themselves uh if we ask who who they are uh students employees what's their background their prior knowledge we talked about that their motivation their comfort zone their ZPD or also uh when we uh we can help them you know these things uh not to assume just uh look for the answers of of the who you know the why connects uh to the needs analysis in in instructional design we do uh needs analysis we can do that also in the uh to learn about the learner autonomy uh why does autonomy matter in this specific context we can ask why do these learners need to take more ownership so it's very important to understand the why to ensure autonomy is purposeful not just something trendy they should have uh the when matters also because timing shapes readiness uh remember we asked we asked uh we we talked about uh when to ask or when to answer uh you know the the students and when to ask them uh what do you think about this topic also uh when the learners are ready to to make uh to to make uh or to take more control or to make judgments for themselves uh are they ready yet we talked about the readiness so uh now about the what now we're talking about the tools we talked about the AI the you know uh we can ask what what can actually support that autonomy is it micro learning reflective uh prompts uh you know these things now the how it's how to uh to uh we can guide them to in this journey how will they scaffold or coach or you know or we can do that so in small change uh is really uh basically uh it's a mindset shift so before you design the experience ask the right question because when you are intentional about these questions uh autonomy doesn't just happen it emerges naturally uh from thoughtful design I love that wow asking those right questions so important absolutely I love that all right well thank you so much Hamza for showing us how calibrated scaffolds honor adult agency and keep progress study which is what we want as instructors right so in part three we'll wrap up the series by discussing how to redesign formative and summative assessments for AI enabled classrooms and I think this will be so key especially now with the incorporation of AI in all areas of learning so I think it'll be a fantastic way to wrap up the series so I'm looking forward to it. Me too this will be nice.

Closing & Support Message

Jackie Pelegrin 49:32

Thank you so much great thank you so much for your time Hamza and I look forward to having you back for part three will uh and I know my listeners are looking forward to as well. Thank you likewise thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today. Your support means the world to me. If you'd like to help keep the podcast going you can share it with a friend or colleague leave a heartfelt review or offer a monetary contribution. Every act of support big or small makes a difference and I'm truly thankful for you.