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Hello and welcome to the Designing with Love podcast.
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I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer.
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Hello instructional designers and educators, welcome to episode 59 of the Designing with Love podcast.
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I'm thrilled to have Tracy King, a learning strategist and the founder and CEO of InspirEd, a learning and development organization, with me today.
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Welcome, Tracy.
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Hey, good to see you.
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It's good to be here.
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Thank you so much.
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Thank you so much for connecting with me on PodMatch and for us being able to do this interview today.
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I'm so excited and I'm looking forward to diving in and going into the different questions that we have, so we can learn a little bit more about what you do.
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Yeah, we're about to have some fun.
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Yes, exactly Looking forward to it.
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So, to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and share what inspired you to focus on employee learning and development?
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Yeah, yeah, once upon a time I got my first job out of college and I was working under a vice president in an administrative team and I noticed that there was a process that was broken, and so I pitched to her that a little piece of training would fix this process and make things work so much smoother.
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And she was like create it.
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And I kind of looked around.
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I was like you're talking to me, you want me to do that.
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And so I created this piece of training to improve this business process.
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It was wildly successful and it eliminated the problems and at the same time I was bit by the bug of designing learning and the transformative power that it has.
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So I went to graduate school, I studied the learning sciences and I began teaching.
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I was an instructor of communication studies and used my classroom as my laboratory to continue to understand how do we connect with our students, our learners, so that they're invested in what we're teaching and they see what they can get out of it and we get to that transformational conclusion together at the end of the semester.
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Because, I'll tell you, my first course was public speaking and there weren't very many students that were excited about that, right exactly.
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They're just as excited about that as math, right?
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Yeah, it's right up there, right.
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Some, some, um, yeah, dude.
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That attitudes that we had I had to also address as part of my design for the course too.
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So it wasn't so scary and it became more fun.
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So that was my foundation in really understanding that there's an art and a science between learning to actually make it effective, to really make it transformational.
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And after a stint in academia, I moved into professional development and I worked for a professional association focusing on training for their international audience of physicians and focused on digital learning so that those physicians could earn their credits to meet their certification recertification requirements wherever they were, whenever they wanted to.
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And that became a passion of mine, seeing the difference between higher ed and workforce development.
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And eventually I got to a place where I was ready to take everything that I had learned from all of those experiences and pour that into my business, inspired Ed and work with professional associations and other workforce development companies across industries in order to make their learning transformational.
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Wow, that's exciting.
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I love that.
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So you're able to take that passion and fuel it into your business and really help transform those different industries.
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That's great.
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So you have your hand in all of it now and you're able to see how that's able to change people's lives in many ways.
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I love that.
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That's great.
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There's nothing like it that you can see, that when you're developing something and then you see it come to fruition and just yeah, it's such a satisfying feeling.
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So I know what you're talking about with that, because I've worked in higher education, I've worked in corporate, you know.
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So, yeah, having that experience and kind of getting your toes dipped in both that it's really nice.
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And then you can kind of see where where your passion is and where you really want to focus your efforts.
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So that's great, wonderful.
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Yeah.
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So we talked a little bit and I know you have a passion for neuro inclusive learninglusive learning.
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So in what ways is neuro-inclusive learning the future of workforce development?
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You know what the future is now, because we know that cognitive diversity exists, we know that neurodivergent individuals are on teams, they're in our organizations, they're our colleagues, they're our mentors no-transcript and so that's really something that we focus on.
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It's always been a cornerstone of the work that I wanted to do to make sure that learning, in order to be transformational, has to be accessible.
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It has to include everyone.
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Everyone belongs To me.
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A foundational piece of being an instructional designer is that I want to see every learner that approaches my training succeed against those objectives, and so it's my job to remove as many barriers as possible to that, partnering with organizations like IASET, we're the international creditors of continuing education and training on neuro inclusion, trying to really now develop not only conversation around what it is and how important it is for us to invest in it, but some tools around that too, because we know that if we exclude one in five learners right, then you know that that has massive impacts on our teams.
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That has massive impacts for those individuals trying to grow their careers, and we're talking about the complexities of the workforce right now, with the massive shifts in the generations, onboarding and offboarding in the workforce.
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So leadership continuity when we're talking about revolving doors in organizations.
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When we're talking about incentivizing employees to stay and grow their careers inside organizations, we're talking about the transformational changes that AI and other new technologies are bringing, what that means for learning.
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If we're going to be excluding one in five learners, we're really going to be in trouble.
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We also know that neurodivergent people are innovative, they're divergent thinkers, they're entrepreneurial, and so to meet these challenges, we need their innovative brains to be part of the conversation, and so absolutely a cornerstone, I believe, of the future of workforce development.
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And so absolutely a cornerstone, I believe, of the future of workforce development, right, wow, yeah, so it's time for us to look at that and step up our game in that sense.
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And yeah, that makes me think of universal design for learning and that type of cornerstone of how and I did a podcast episode in the series of.
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It was for one of the solo episodes.
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I did a podcast episode in the series of.
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It was for one of the solo episodes I did and it was a whole series on different ID models and theories, and one of the ones that I didn't think of until later on was UDL and being able to give that information about how UDL is so important.
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And so it kind of brings us back to that and making it available and accessible for everybody, no matter what their limitations are or anything like that, and knowing that those limitations can be good, they can be, they can be used to harness good things.
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So yeah, we should look at them as as as something to yeah, as a limitation really, but more as an opportunity to grow.
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Yeah, exactly yeah, because we don't want to limit people and what they're able to do.
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Like you said, a lot of them are innovators and unable to be entrepreneurs and think of great ideas that maybe someone else in a group didn't think of.
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So yeah, I was at UDL Con this summer and was able to present on neuroinclusion and workforce development, and we had a really great conversation.
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I like to cluster tools around three primary challenge areas that we can meet on, and one of those being sensory sensitivities.
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What does that mean for our environments?
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Learning environments, how we prepare materials, how speakers instruct learning environments, how we prepare materials, how speakers instruct Executive function challenges.
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We're talking about attention.
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What that means for someone with ADHD is different than someone with a neurotypical brain.
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What does it mean in terms of focus and harnessing the resources, of motivations to persist with learning, all of those kinds of things.
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And then there's a lot of norms that we really need to talk about, things that are unseen, that we just take for granted, that are actually exclusionary, that we can create more structure or more flexibility depending on what the norm is around.
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For example, turn-taking Really challenging for a lot of neurodivergent folks.
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Structure around turn-taking is really helpful for a lot of neurodivergent folks.
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Structure around turn-taking is really helpful.
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Norms around eye contact, around using stims like my quiet little pokey guy here around standing or sitting or allowing some movement during learning so that people can regulate their nervous systems.
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Little things like that can radically shift the experience, and so there's a lot of really easy entry ways.
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We can talk about improving learning design to ensure that all brains are able to belong.
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Wow, I love that idea and I think even for higher education and K through 12, we could even take some of those things that you're working on and that you're trying to put forward in the workforce development arena and be able to bring that over into other areas K-12, higher education because it makes me think of this example of where we're trying to bring more interactivity to the curriculum that I'm working on, and so we have this platform and it's and it's internal.
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It's called Ignite and it was meant to to actually bring more of that interactivity into something where we don't have to use a third party type of software to be able to do that.
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So they created it in house.
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The only thing is is they didn't consult with the instructional designers, right?
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They didn't consult with editors to see, okay, if we import this video, a YouTube video, and then we don't give credit to that video we have in our curriculum, what does that do?
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And I'm sure you face that too with with clients, where you have to say, okay, there's intellectual property, you have to make sure you're aware of that, but also the design elements of it and making sure that we're not overloading our learners and not giving them too much.
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You know, we take into mind universal design for learning, cognitive load theory and all those different things.
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So that's really great that you bring that up, because I think that's so important for us to think of that, because so many of our curriculum developers they come from a K through 12 environment and so they are familiar with some of those things, but then they don't know how to translate that to adult learning and what adult learners need versus what children need.
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So there's just so many factors that go into it Right, and so special design is not a one size fits all approach.
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Special design is not a one size fits all approach.
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We have to really take it so that we're still designing it for everyone, but we think of all the learners that will touch that course right.
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And touch that learning yeah, that's great.
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I love that.
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It's good to bring that up and be able to talk about that, because we need to have more conversations about that.
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Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
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And you talked a little bit about the next generation, like Gen Z, that multi-generational right that's so important.
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So, as learning and development professionals, how do you think we can create continuing education that appeals to the Gen Z generation?
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I love this question, in part because I created four of them.
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I'm invested.
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Yeah, there was a recent study conducted by Zen Business and they were really trying to understand some of the unique characteristics of Gen Z, what they're bringing into the workforce, because we know that, you know, the generations tend to have their differences of opinions of how things should work and there's some clashes in the cultures of the different generations.
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But some really interesting things came out of that survey.
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One of them is that Gen Z is the most entrepreneurial and neurodivergent generation to date.
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They're also the most diverse generation to date and those three factors really really are critical to what they bring to the workforce.
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But what they expect from employers, from professional development, from the experience of a career trajectory like their previous generations, that they think of their career as more of acquiring portable skills that they can apply in multiple different ways.
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But they really want to find ways to apply their zone of genius to whether it's for work that they do for themselves, because they are entrepreneurial, or within organizations, to make a difference.
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Gen Z wants to make a difference.
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Gen Z wants to make a difference.
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They don't want to punch a clock.
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They definitely do want balance, but these factors are really important when we think about training, because when you think about an entrepreneurial brain, when you think about a neurodivergent brain and there's a big overlap in that then different types of training and interactions are going to appeal to them, and and so it really becomes important for us to to think about how we are um not just telling, but giving them an opportunity to to um practice and also to interact with people who are doing so.
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There are opportunities to not just info dump, going back to cognitive load, but opportunities to apply what they're learning to innovative problem solving right.
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Opportunities to see diversity in training, but also to interact with diverse professionals.
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They're really going to be more interested in flexibility when it comes to when they're learning, but also some structure in terms of how can I apply this?
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It has to be practical.
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They're a very pragmatic generation, and so it's causing us to ask some different questions as designers.
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So do we offer skills-based training that addresses their growth needs and goals?
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Are we offering contextual and experiential learning opportunities?
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Do our materials reflect the diversity that they are?
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Are there opportunities to facilitate intergenerational industry in like problem solving together?
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These are the types of experiences that Gen Z really value and are opportunities for us to not only excite them but also incentivize them to grow with us in our organizations.
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Right, I love that, and I love that you have that survey data, that evidence-based data that you can bring to the table and you can say here's what the generation wants.
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Because, as you said, every generation wants and needs different things.
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And so, yeah, as we evolve as a nation and as a society, it's so important to take those into consideration and not say, well, we've always done it this way.
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I've heard that before with people that I've worked with.
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Well, it's always worked this way, so let's just keep doing it.
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And I'm like that's not always the case.
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Yeah, if it's broken, we shouldn't fix it, but at the same time, we just can't expect the same result every time.
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If something's not working, we should look at why it's not working and see what we can do.
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Gen Z will definitely challenge that too, Another thing about them is they are, you know, the ADA generation.
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They are the IDEA generation, so they have been supported in their neurodivergence and other support needs throughout their entire education.
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And so now they're coming into the workforce and they are armed with how to advocate for their support needs.
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And so previous generations like mine, Generation X not really good at advocating for ourselves, not really good at asking for supports, really good at asking for supports and this generation is coming in with expectations that when they ask for supports that they'll be provided, that this is how we live and work and collaborate together.
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And so there, I think there's some surprises for some employers who aren't used to that level of self-advocacy that these, you know, Gen Z is coming into the workforce ready for a more mature level conversation about support needs.
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Wow, that's great.
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I love that and that they're not afraid to speak up and ask for what it is that they need, because they know that that's going to help them be a better employee, that's going to help the organization thrive.
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Right, and you've probably seen, that as an entrepreneur right.
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If you're able to meet them where they're at and help, support them and come alongside them.
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I think that really helps to help them feel valued, and then they in turn will bring that value to your organization too as well.
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Exactly.
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That's great, it's a two-way street right, absolutely.
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Yeah, that's great.
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You touched a little bit on AI earlier, so that seems to be it comes up in all my conversations and interviews.
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So, because it's such a, it came so quickly for us.
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But so how do you believe AI is transforming how we create, deliver and measure learning?
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And while there are some fun features for us to play with right now, we can already see, with what's in beta, some of the ways we need to position operationally to be prepared for that.
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Ai is definitely going to shift what the role of instructional designer is.
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We'll definitely be collaborating with AI, so, instead of being the one who designs the experience, what we're expecting is we're going to see us shifting more into content management, like content architecture, but also just safeguarding the accuracy and bias-free nature of the source content that AI will be able to dynamically assemble.
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We'll also be architecting learning pathways right, instead of just coursework, which I think is going to be really exciting for us, because we've been talking about the importance of learning pathways and adaptive learning for so long but haven't quite had the tool set to be able to implement that, and we're finally going to get to a place where we can, which is super exciting.
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And I think you know the learner data piece is going to be transformational the kind of data we'll be able to collect, but then, you know, readily apply.
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It's really hard now to pool meaningful learner data that not only helps the learner advance in their learning goals, but also informs us and precisely how to improve our programs and then have the time to improve our programs.
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Right, exactly.
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Yeah, and we're talking about the kind of data pool that will help us really shift into the skills first workforce that we're seeing, you know, unfold right now.
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That will radically change how we develop job task analyses, which you know are what undergird certification programs and big assessmentbased certificate programs and other big continuing education initiatives, which will then shift how we're able to create a more dynamic knowledge base for different roles in different industries, and so some really exciting things coming to play.
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But right now we have some fun tools that we get to play with and imagine into and see how they can make some of the things we do more efficient, but then also be thinking about how was this going to radically shift, how I can do things differently and better.
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Right, exactly, so you can be able to take something whether it's a brand new course that you're developing or you're re-imagining a course and revising it, then you can utilize the AI tools to be able to make it better and be able to make it more, like you said, inclusive and really get them ready for that workforce.
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That's great.
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I love that.
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Yeah, it makes me think of the 4CID model.
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You know where we have and because there's some workforce development programs where they need to have those skills that like whether it's flight training or something like that where it's like they really depend on that task analysis type of training where they have to be able to prove they can do that before they get into the workforce.
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So medical, you know, nursing things like that those, those are so critical, and so I'm sure that you know that's something you know where you can look at those different models and then you can look to see how how can we integrate that and then utilize the technology that we have.
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So that's great, yeah, for sure.
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Right now it's very labor intensive process to you know, do job task analysis and you know if we're able to use AI tools to not only collect but interpret data.
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We could, you know, more quickly see the trends and how things are shifting, how we can better support people in the workforce to upskill and reskill as needed, because lots of things are changing folks.
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Right, exactly, yeah, especially with that data.
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You know, because as instructional designers it's great when we do get the data, but it's often hard, like you said, to be able to have not only the time but to be able to make those meaningful changes that the data speaks to right and be able to make sure that it's applicable to what they need.
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So we face that a lot with our programs and our courses that we design and we revise, and be able to take that data.
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Just today we received student end of course data.
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We received the faculty end of course data.
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But it's so much data.
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There's nine different colleges that all have data and there's, I think, oh I don't know how many courses there are throughout the college.
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There's at least I think there's like 900 courses across the college.
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So that's a lot of data, that's a lot of courses.
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So being able to take that and so some of my colleagues have been able to take our internal AI tool and they'll take that spreadsheet, they'll break it down and they'll say, okay, I'm just working on this particular discipline, and then they upload it to the tool and they say can you give me the highlights?
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And then they take that with them into a revision meeting or a kickoff and say, okay, here's what the data tells us.
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How can we leverage that and utilize that?
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So it's really great when you can utilize those tools and help it to digest that data a little bit more.
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It really helps.
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So, yeah, it's great.
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I'm trying to utilize it as much as I can, too, to help my subject matter experts so they don't have to feel like they're having to start from scratch and they can at least have something to start with, and then they can manipulate it and say, okay, nope, that doesn't quite work, let's revise this or that.
00:24:29.730 --> 00:24:37.759
And because sometimes AI just doesn't quite understand what the subject matter experts understand, it can't get into their heads.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.250
So I'm like that's where your expertise will come in.
00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:43.548
So I like that, but that's a good point.
00:24:44.261 --> 00:24:45.326
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:46.008 --> 00:25:12.066
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, alum, right, with that content expertise that they can query against.
00:25:12.066 --> 00:25:22.824
And so we're going to get to a place where, as instructional designers, are more in charge of content architecture and the accuracy and bias-free nature of our content, like governing these LLMs.
00:25:22.824 --> 00:25:28.347
Our subject matter experts won't necessarily be writers anymore, but they'll be editors.
00:25:28.347 --> 00:25:30.829
Right, they're going to be technical editors.
00:25:30.829 --> 00:25:36.595
They're going to be looking for perspective, bias, but how do we pivot this for different audiences?
00:25:36.595 --> 00:25:52.358
They're going to be more strategic around content rather than us just trying to pull out the goodies from their brains, right, right, so that's going to be a real shift for them and how we collaborate with them on learning development.
00:25:52.984 --> 00:25:54.009
Wow, that's amazing.
00:25:54.009 --> 00:25:56.731
Yeah, it's definitely transforming things, for sure.
00:25:56.731 --> 00:25:57.875
That's wonderful.
00:25:57.875 --> 00:26:08.707
So, as we wrap up, what are your top tips or advice for listeners who are looking to transition into instructional design or just starting out in the field, or just starting out in the field.
00:26:08.866 --> 00:26:22.838
Well, one thing I would say is that instructional design is a craft, it's an art and a science, and so there's a lot of science-y things you can learn in order to inform the art of your design.
00:26:22.838 --> 00:26:26.221
But the art part is like you got to get in there and you've got to play.
00:26:26.221 --> 00:26:37.625
You got to be curious, you got to have some fun with the tools, and the more you play in the space, the more confidence that you'll have in designing training that excites your learners and excites you as a designer.
00:26:37.625 --> 00:26:44.086
The other tip I'll offer is that when we're talking about inclusion, we're talking about accessibility and inclusion.
00:26:44.086 --> 00:26:49.518
We're always going to be on a learning curve in in learning design.
00:26:49.518 --> 00:27:03.833
So you know, one of the principles of UDL is you know the multiple means of whether that's you know how we present material or assess material, et cetera, and so there's always going to be another way to do things and it's okay to be on that learning curve.
00:27:03.833 --> 00:27:19.425
It's okay to never feel like we arrived at perfectly accessible or inclusive learning and so to just hold curiosity around that and to seek feedback and just look for the nuggets in that feedback.
00:27:19.967 --> 00:27:22.152
Sometimes, when we get feedback as designers.
00:27:22.152 --> 00:27:28.013
It is framed out of frustration For someone's experience.
00:27:28.013 --> 00:27:31.991
They've experienced barriers repeatedly in learning and so it's not about you.
00:27:31.991 --> 00:27:37.726
Try not to take it personally or as a personal attack.
00:27:37.726 --> 00:27:45.789
Take it as an opportunity to see training in a new way and incorporate a new practice.
00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:48.131
And incorporate a new practice.
00:27:48.131 --> 00:28:09.823
And if we all were able to set aside the emotion that comes with feedback sometimes and always just be in a curious place of thank you for sharing that, realizing that when someone is sharing feedback, even when it's from a frustrated space, that means that they want to work with you to improve things right.
00:28:11.404 --> 00:28:13.953
I love that, that we can always be better together.
00:28:13.953 --> 00:28:16.048
And that's really what it's about.
00:28:16.471 --> 00:28:17.313
We're always learning.
00:28:17.313 --> 00:28:22.166
I love that, so it doesn't feel like it's us against them, right?
00:28:22.827 --> 00:28:23.087
Right.
00:28:23.468 --> 00:28:29.932
Yes, because I've had that happen in different jobs before, where different people in the different departments.
00:28:29.932 --> 00:28:44.101
It feels like we're pitted against each other and we shouldn't be pitted against each other and we definitely shouldn't be, you know, pitted against the learners, because they're the we're creating these experiences for them and, yeah, that's a great way to look at it.
00:28:44.101 --> 00:28:44.780
I love that.
00:28:44.780 --> 00:28:46.982
Yeah, that shouldn't be us against them.
00:28:46.982 --> 00:28:54.038
Yeah, because sometimes I think that tends to be what what we kind of think of it as sometimes even subject matter experts.
00:28:54.780 --> 00:29:03.009
I say this to my, my co workers all the time they're not our enemy, they're, they're our collaborative partner, they're supposed to work with us.
00:29:03.009 --> 00:29:04.313
So, same thing with learners, right?
00:29:04.313 --> 00:29:05.496
Yeah, I love that.
00:29:05.496 --> 00:29:07.648
Yeah, great advice, tracy.
00:29:07.648 --> 00:29:19.471
I love that Because it's always, it's always hard when you're first starting out, to take that feedback with, with that intention of what it's supposed to be and not a personal jab, you know, at us.
00:29:19.471 --> 00:29:22.038
So, yeah, that's great, I love that.
00:29:22.038 --> 00:29:24.570
Well, thank you so much, tracy, for sharing your insights today.
00:29:24.570 --> 00:29:29.030
Your experiences, tips and expertise are sure to inspire my learners, so I appreciate it.
00:29:29.030 --> 00:29:31.096
So amazing to be here.
00:29:31.175 --> 00:29:32.097
Thank you so much, Jackie.
00:29:35.505 --> 00:29:36.367
I appreciate it, Thank you.
00:29:36.367 --> 00:29:39.195
I look forward to having you back on the show again, because I think we could talk about so many more things.
00:29:39.195 --> 00:29:40.058
I think it'll be wonderful.
00:29:40.058 --> 00:29:41.807
Yeah, let's do it All right.
00:29:41.807 --> 00:29:43.051
Thank you, Appreciate it.
00:29:43.051 --> 00:29:48.429
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today.
00:29:48.429 --> 00:29:50.730
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00:29:50.730 --> 00:29:59.461
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